You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Thoth - List of Editions.
SarahRose
Mine's probably been said over and over...
Date of deck: I see (c) '78 and (c) '83
Publisher: US Games Systems, Inc.
Box design, it's colour etc.: purple with some purple swirls
Card size: it's the smaller deck - the 2"x3"-ish one.
Fronts, borders, their colour and decoration (if any), etc.: the greyish line border with the number at the top and the name on the bottom
Backs, whether they have white borders or not: yes, white borders and the irreversible colorful cross design
Extra cards, hexagram, OTO cards, magi etc.: 3 magician cards
LWB, contents: not sure where it is
ISBN: 0-88079-308-2
Amazon Link: http://www.amazon.com/Thoth-Tarot-D..._bbs_sr_2/102-6759374-4392132?ie=UTF8&s=books
Date of deck: I see (c) '78 and (c) '83
Publisher: US Games Systems, Inc.
Box design, it's colour etc.: purple with some purple swirls
Card size: it's the smaller deck - the 2"x3"-ish one.
Fronts, borders, their colour and decoration (if any), etc.: the greyish line border with the number at the top and the name on the bottom
Backs, whether they have white borders or not: yes, white borders and the irreversible colorful cross design
Extra cards, hexagram, OTO cards, magi etc.: 3 magician cards
LWB, contents: not sure where it is
ISBN: 0-88079-308-2
Amazon Link: http://www.amazon.com/Thoth-Tarot-D..._bbs_sr_2/102-6759374-4392132?ie=UTF8&s=books
Teheuti
Thanks so much for the summary, which is very helpful. I'm curious tho' - isn't the Llewellyn deck printed in Hong Kong earlier than the Weiser deck? Are there any dates for the first Llewellyn printing? Was their U.S. printing before or after the Hong Kong one? How did both Llewellyn and Weiser end up with the rights and the same boxes???Umbrae said:
One other point about the early white slipcase decks. The Weiser edition went through several printings despite being in the same box in which the intensity of the inks varied a great deal. I remember classes in the mid-70s where there was a noticeable variation in the decks that different people had.
I've seen the originals a couple of times and the most notable difference is that they were done mostly in watercolor so that there is a clarity and luminosity that you can never reproduce in flat printer's inks. I remember specifically the great variety of different oranges in the Hierophant and that they almost seemed to glow.
Mary
Teheuti
Okay - here's the low-down from Carl Weschcke himself, sent to me this evening:
Dear Mary,
I don't have the exact year of publication for the Thoth Deck at hand,
but Llewellyn was the first publisher.
The story is that Grady McMurtry paid Crowley $250 for the rights to the
deck, and photographed the art with his 35mm camera. Some of it was
poorly lit, and you probably see that in your deck. We had a contract
with McMurtry and printed the decks first in Hong Kong and then later in
the United States.
I forget what year when Weiser got involved. It those days, copyright
was not secure like it is today, and anything first published outside
the U.S. was not protected by U.S. copyright even after being registered
here. There were two complications - the first being the original
publication of the Book of Thoth with all the cards illustrated. That
book was printed in the UK and then reprinted by Weiser under the clause
putting it in public domain. And their claim was that the deck was
likewise in the public domain and either they would share printings with
Llewellyn or they would do it on their own.
For several printings in the U.S. with Morgan we did share. And then an
OTO guy arranged to photograph the paintings again after they were
touched up (they had mold on them from improper storage during the War)
and they contracted with Mueller to print them in Europe with U.S. Games
distributing them in the U.S.
That was the end. We printed over 50,000 decks. I eventually sold our
negatives as collectors items to the OTO.
I would say that the copyright issues really never were settled, but who
wants to fight the OTO people? And ethically, I think they have the most
legitimate claim anyway. Frieda Harris never got anything out of it.
I think our edition was the best packaged of any, and that's to the
credit of our printer, Dai Nippon, which at the time was the world's
largest printer with plants in Japan and Hong Kong. Today, they are
defunct.
Carl
Carl Llewellyn Weschcke
President & Publisher
LLEWELLYN WORLDWIDE, LTD.
Dear Mary,
I don't have the exact year of publication for the Thoth Deck at hand,
but Llewellyn was the first publisher.
The story is that Grady McMurtry paid Crowley $250 for the rights to the
deck, and photographed the art with his 35mm camera. Some of it was
poorly lit, and you probably see that in your deck. We had a contract
with McMurtry and printed the decks first in Hong Kong and then later in
the United States.
I forget what year when Weiser got involved. It those days, copyright
was not secure like it is today, and anything first published outside
the U.S. was not protected by U.S. copyright even after being registered
here. There were two complications - the first being the original
publication of the Book of Thoth with all the cards illustrated. That
book was printed in the UK and then reprinted by Weiser under the clause
putting it in public domain. And their claim was that the deck was
likewise in the public domain and either they would share printings with
Llewellyn or they would do it on their own.
For several printings in the U.S. with Morgan we did share. And then an
OTO guy arranged to photograph the paintings again after they were
touched up (they had mold on them from improper storage during the War)
and they contracted with Mueller to print them in Europe with U.S. Games
distributing them in the U.S.
That was the end. We printed over 50,000 decks. I eventually sold our
negatives as collectors items to the OTO.
I would say that the copyright issues really never were settled, but who
wants to fight the OTO people? And ethically, I think they have the most
legitimate claim anyway. Frieda Harris never got anything out of it.
I think our edition was the best packaged of any, and that's to the
credit of our printer, Dai Nippon, which at the time was the world's
largest printer with plants in Japan and Hong Kong. Today, they are
defunct.
Carl
Carl Llewellyn Weschcke
President & Publisher
LLEWELLYN WORLDWIDE, LTD.
Teheuti
Llewellyn Hong Kong edition
The borders of the Hong Kong edition are all the same pale blue color (compared to the Weiser edition where they vary in intensity) and they are uncoated, which makes them look a little less sharp. In general, the colors are much more muted than the Weiser cards and in some cases are quite muddy and gray.
Mary
The borders of the Hong Kong edition are all the same pale blue color (compared to the Weiser edition where they vary in intensity) and they are uncoated, which makes them look a little less sharp. In general, the colors are much more muted than the Weiser cards and in some cases are quite muddy and gray.
Mary
gregory
My first Thoth (earliest)was not printed in HK, is a gold box Weiser labelled OTO (type A on TG chart), and was bought in 1974 or 5 at the latest......Teheuti said:Thanks so much for the summary, which is very helpful. I'm curious tho' - isn't the Llewellyn deck printed in Hong Kong earlier than the Weiser deck?
And the oranges do vary, yes Mary !
Dean
This is what i've been trying to find out whether the Hong Kong Llewellyn edition was printed before the US Llewellyn, i too had an email from Carl that explains more about the history on how the 1969's editions came about.
Dean said:There is also an email i got from Llewellyn publications recently on the History of the First printed Thoth decks from 1969, this is the email message in full below.
Dear Sir,
Our records relating to the Crowley Thoth Tarot have long been discarded.
Here is what I can tell you from memory and a few odd notes:
We purchased 35 mm negatives of artwork from a Mr. McMurtry who had an agreement with Crowley to publish the Thoth Deck. We did some improvement work on these films.
We first published the deck in 1969 and printed it in Hong Kong in a deluxe slip box. Later we transferred the printing work to Morgan Press in New York and did some further improvement on the negatives. We have not printed the deck since 1977 when a new edition from new photography was published by U.S. Games. Later, after the assertion of copyright claims by the O.T.O., further printings were handled by Mueller (now part of Carta Mundi) in Europe.
Many people have written us over the years seeking copies of our original printing, but – of course – these are long gone.
That’s the best I can do for you.
Regards,
Carl Llewellyn Weschcke
President & Publisher
www.llewellyn.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Teheuti
I don't know if anyone here mentioned the first ever printing of the deck. I haven't actually seen a copy but I heard rumors of it when I lived in London. Here are my notes on this version:
"The cards were produced in monochromatic brown, printed in a limited edition of 200, dated March 21, 1944, and not available to the general public."
Anyone here ever see a copy?
Mary
"The cards were produced in monochromatic brown, printed in a limited edition of 200, dated March 21, 1944, and not available to the general public."
Anyone here ever see a copy?
Mary
Kimber
Original Thoth
I think the version mentioned as the original is what is known as the Sangreal Tarot. I think Kaplan described it as printed in red ink (one color), with brown card backs. I don't know anyone who's ever actually seen a copy, so it's probable that none survived to the present, unfortunately!
I think the version mentioned as the original is what is known as the Sangreal Tarot. I think Kaplan described it as printed in red ink (one color), with brown card backs. I don't know anyone who's ever actually seen a copy, so it's probable that none survived to the present, unfortunately!
Dean
Kimber said:I don't know anyone who's ever actually seen a copy, so it's probable that none survived to the present, unfortunately!
Hi Kimber
I have not seen this Sangreal deck, but there have been a few people who have bought this deck in Texas, where this deck had been printed.
Here's the thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=72057&page=3&pp=10
