a question regarding pamela colman smith's interpetation of the tarot.

jmd

Colman Smith's pip imagery was in part taken from the Sola Busca deck that at the time was apparently exhibited in the British Museum. Kaplan's Encyclopedia of Tarot shows a number of cards bearing more than striking similarity.

It perhaps should be noted that at the time of that deck's creation, a number of others had likewise been created, including Wirth's and the very Egyptian-based Falconnier. Also, it would probably be fair to mention that Levi was still of central importance, and that the most popular continental deck was at that time not the Marseille, but rather the Eteilla (apart from gaming decks, of course).

With regards to the meaning of symbols, I tend to see them as being at the same time very precise, yet not fixed nor mono-layered or monodimensional. The Fool, then, may give a wide range of precise meanings across the context in which it may be read.

In a reading, in addition, it may not be the whole card that speaks in the narrative, but a tiny fragment and thte manner in which it connects to other fragments of the reading.
 

Parzival

A Question Regarding Pamela Colman-Smith's Interpretation

As to the first question, she did not work in a vacuum, nor did Homer and Shakespeare. She referenced and incorporated prior Tarot symbolism; worked with Golden Dawn Kabbalistic attributions and total Major/Minor system via Arthur Waite, with whom she collaborated; and she contributed her own artistic sensitivity and vision and skill. She joined into the stream of Tarot creation and re-creation which began in northern Italy and continues alive and well today. She is both traditional and original, as all creative geniuses are. Is the Waite-Smith Tarot "standard" as Fulgour states? Are frivolous, playful Tarots as Quintessential as Renaissance Art Tarots and The classical Marseilles and esoterically-based Tarots? Both Beauty and Truth are in the Mental Eye of the beholder. But not all Tarots are the same, or there would not be such healthy comparative dialogue which champions some Tarots of long ago and forgets others brand new, seeking for the perfect One.
Beneath all Tarots, there is the Ultimate One --- the Human Soul, Self-expressive in visual Image.
 

Umbrae

Frank Hall – what a beautiful, and comprehensive post. Thank you.

My answer to the original thesis question is, why? Does it matter?

It matters only in relation to your approach to tarot (why do you read tarot?)…

If you’re interest is strictly an intellectual exercise, sprinkled with historical ‘mandates’, then perhaps it may.

If you’re interested in Tarot for reading for others, from a spiritual or psychic, or whatever exo or extra means, then the only thing that matters is using what at that time helps create a clear conduit between you and whatever Remember the Sweet N’ Low post?.

If you’re interested in reading Tarot for others from a symbolic, Jungian, psychological, or artistic interpretation means…still does it matter?

Colman-Smith did wonderful work. And it works…
 

Red Emma

The Right Tarot deck

Umbrae said:
My answer to the original thesis question is, why? Does it matter?

If you’re interest is strictly an intellectual exercise, sprinkled with historical ‘mandates’, then perhaps it may.

If you’re interested in reading Tarot for others from a symbolic, Jungian, psychological, or artistic interpretation means…still does it matter?

Thanks, Umbrae, for changing and broadening the perspective.
 

le pendu

piscesdreamer said:
Is there not a uniform meaning for each of the pictoral interpatations of the tarot symbols?does the fool or the devil mean one thing in one deck and mean something different in another?

I wish there were an early document detailing what each card should mean from the early years of Tarot development, but there is no such document. We can't even know for sure that Tarot cards were used for anything but a game for several centuries.

As far as the TdM goes, this leaves a great deal of openness to diversity, with most people creating their own system of interpretation. Some people use numerology, cabbala, color, or even counting the petals of a flower to give interpretation to the cards. Others have developed a system of interpretation based on what they believe the origins of the cards may have been. For instance, if they believe Tarot holds a secret, gnostic school of thought, this influences how they read a card, The Popess may be read as as representing Mary Magdalene for instance.

The wonderful thing about the RWS deck is that a complete *system*, with interpretations, was handed down to us. But even though we have knowledge of what each card should mean for this deck, most people seem to overlay either accumulated meanings on top of the cards, or intuitive meanings, so again, there is no universal standard for interpretation. For some, it seems going by the rules set forth by the Golden Dawn and Waite are just a starting point. Modern reinterpretations/variations of the deck take us a step farther from this system, usually losing or adding symbolism.

Then we have the Thoth, which is possibly the most complete system. Crowley went to great lengths to define what each card should mean in his system, and there is an overarching philosophy that (in my opinon) makes the system a complete working tool for those who choose to abide by it. Alas, like the RWS, most people seem to choose to use Crowley's interpretations as a starting point and again lay their own accumulated or intuitive meanings on top of it.

So is there a definitive meaning to any card? I don't think there is or ever has been. Just look at The Hanged Man... the earliest documents that we have refer to him as "The Traitor". He is clearly a man hung by gallows, as we might suspect a traitor should be. Yet many people give this card a positive interpretation such as "Self Sacrafice" or "A world turned upside down giving a new perspective". On a more middle ground reading, he is sometimes "Stagnation" or "Suspension". But rarely do I hear this card interpreted as "Treachory", "Betrayal", or even "Punishment".

How many readers do you know that interpret even the most clearly indicated cards as they are named and displayed? Is Death read as Death? Rarely. He has been "softened" to mean "A major change", or "A new beginning". The Lovers is often interpreted as "A Choice", rather than the perhaps more obvious "Love". The Fool, rather then representing foolishness, is refered to as "Innocence", or "The start of a journey".

So here we go again, the discussion that never ends... Did the creator of the Tarot, as it has come to us, have definitive meanings set for the cards? Was this even their intention? We will probably never know for sure. So we are left to search for answers, and our answers are usually based on the accumulated knowledge and experierience of our relationship with Tarot. Because this is an individual search, the answers are individual, and the interpretaions are individual.

You *do* have the choice to use a system if you choose. You could choose to use the Golden Dawn's system, or Waite's, or Crowley's, or the system specified by the creator of any of the modern decks... each is equally valid. Or you could, as most seem to do, create your own system, which is also as equally valid as any system named above. But no, there is no definitive meaning for any card.

robert
 

wandking

Nice Idea Moongold

It would be great if PCS had written a book on her minor arcana artwork. Perhaps royalties would have at least furnished her with a better life and a reasonable memorial at her burial site. You'd think Waite would have adressed her scenes to some degree in his writings. He sure had plenty to say about symbolism used by himself and others. It appears fair-mindedness, a trait often ascribed Waite's sun-sign Libra, was put aside when it came to Smith.
 

Sophie

le pendu said:
You *do* have the choice to use a system if you choose. You could choose to use the Golden Dawn's system, or Waite's, or Crowley's, or the system specified by the creator of any of the modern decks... each is equally valid. Or you could, as most seem to do, create your own system, which is also as equally valid as any system named above. But no, there is no definitive meaning for any card.

Do you believe there is only one - or at most two or three -possible meanings for any one card, even within a system, Robert? I am sure it is possible to see Le Pendu, the Hanged Man as having many layers of meanings, whatever the system you choose, or the school of thought. Not invented meanings, just meanings suggested by the depth of the symbol, which includes all the meanings you have mentioned, allied with the other symbols in a reading. Just as the word "hanging" can mean such different things, depending on whether it is allied to "curtains" "gallows" "telephone" or "mistletoe"...

The mysteriousness of a card, its layers of meaning and its power also comes from the juxtaposition of two or more seemingly irreconcilable elements - thus giving us a feeling of strangeness, of break in the normality of things: so we have a Hanged Man on a gallows, whose expression is gentle and serene; a woman in Pope's clothing; a lover with two women to choose from, both touching him, waiting upon Cupid to strike; a lady putting her fingertips in the mouth of a lion and taming it; or (in RWS) a young man about to throw himself off a cliff with a happy smile on his face or a juggler dancing with two discs held in an infinity sign.

How all these different elements will be interpreted will depend on the cards own inner layers of meaning, and on the other cards around which might reinforce one symbol at the expense of another, might suggest this meaning rather than that. Has anyone ever been able to give a full and detailed list of meanings for The Fool? I don't think so, because it is impossible -the meanings stretch out into the infinite, that's an intrinsic part of the meaning of that card! And when we link the Fool and the Hanged Man, where might these two lead us? ;)

I don't think we are talking about fanciful interpretation here - but about a reading, which is a whole and much more than the sum of its multiple and many-signifying parts...
 

le pendu

Hi Helvetica (love your posts),

I guess the point of my post was to show that there is no definitive meaning for any card.

Because we do not know the intent, if any, behind the creation/choice of symbolism of the first Tarot deck (whatever that might have been), we are left to create our own or follow others before us.. or as most do.. mix and match.

So this, I suppose, leads us to what might be considered "The Art of Interpretation".

There is ambiguity. We have choices. There are shades of grey.

Everyone chooses to fall somewhere on the scale between absolute and multiplicty of meanings for a card's interpretation. Frankly, all should be respected because there is no right answer. We are all making it up. We've lost the "Ur" tarot, and the LWB that came with it, so it's up for grabs.

A reader may look at The Fool, and with great clarity, choose to ALWAYS interpret the card to mean Foolishness, allowing the position and relationship to suggest the gestalt of the reading.

Or a reader may choose to interpret The Fool, depending on what deck they are using, following the guidelines set forth by the creator.

One may have a standard catalog of general meanings and choose the one that seems best to apply based on position and relationship (and probably intuition), regardless of deck.

Or one may choose to interpret a new meaning for the card based on intuition and psychic connection with every reading.

So that is four of the probably many ways to read a card. Most readers, to me, seem to fall in the middle, allowing interpretation, but only within certain parameters, feeling uneasy with either extreme of either absolute meaning or completely intuitive interpretation, per card. But I do wish that those in the middle grey more often recognized that either extreme is equally valid to their own postion. It is no more "right" to have one meaning, several meanings, or a multiplicity of meanings. It's an equally valid choice.

But going back to my original point, even absolute meanings are created, as there is no absolutely correct meaning to the cards. ... we do not know what the creator of the first deck intended, if anything, for them to "mean". The closest you can get is to adopt a system like Waite's or Crowley's, or develop your own through research and experience. Then, where you fall in the spectrum, and how wide the spectrum of grey you wish to allow, is entirely up to you.

robert
 

Cerulean

Hello Pieces Dreamer, on your later question:

Numbers are mine:

(1.)Is there not a uniform meaning for each of the pictorial interpretations of the tarot symbols? (2)does the fool or the devil mean one thing in one deck and mean something different in another?

My example is Temperance, a favorite major of mine.

There are people who really enjoy reading many different decks in a similar way, varying their shades of meaning. I tend to read decks differently.

A.Temperance in my look at the Visconti deck seems to me more a handmaiden, either to the pagan gods or court royalty. She is lovely, a lady to my eyes, but her moderation and purification of water is old fashioned view of Temperance.

B.Temperance in my Milanese Di Gumppenberg Neoclassical of 1810 is angelic, female and more a pagan muse of spiritual authority that counsels a stronger feeling to me that Temperance is a strong, constant activity. Just my feeling.

C.Temperance in the Rider Waite of 1909/1910 and Waite variations is more a Christian angel with irises and lillies and a foot on land and a foot on water. This is not a lady to me.

D.Temperance in Crowley is a vivid picture of alchemical bonding and union of male and female.

Here's some variations just in Rider Waite and Crowley Thoth:

http://www.lelandra.com/comptarot/tarotthothclone.htm

Hope the specific detail explains my thoughts...it might be you were only thinking of certain variations and I was thinking of my deck collection and different reading styles. This is only my opinion, though.

Regards

Cerulean