Artistic Skill, Aesthetics in the Thoth and other "GD-inspired" Decks.

yogiman

I don't know being a dutch man I have much right of typing here, but I agree somewhat with the lady here. Some cards are really beautiful, but nowadays there are heaps of artists who could do at least the same. And some cards are just inferior. For example, card VI the lovers I find messy, the faces often are like puppets, and what should have been dolphins in some pipcards, are degraded to non-existent aquarium fish. Maybe the blame is not so much on FH, but on her timing schedule. Maybe I like the Rosetta tarot better.
 

Zephyros

I don't see what being Dutch has anything to do with it, but in defense of Harris, the deck is highly stylized and isn't big on realism. You don't need to go all the way to today, however; there were talented artists then, too, with photorealistic talents (and were even long before, think of the Flemish painters). If we judge solely on realism, Van Gogh would be considered silly and untalented.
 

Fianic

I once met Ciro Marchetti. He commented on how since tarot is such a niche market, decks are never painted by the best artists of any era. It is simply not as profitable as other artistic fields.

This coming from the most respected living tarot artist, it is arguable that no Tarot deck will ever measure up to the eye of any true professional. So I guess it's best to judge the art in its context rather than in a purely objective or technical point of view.
 

Kingdubrock

Don't be so sensitive :laugh:

I guess I wont get answers to my questions then.

....

I didnt feel sensitive about your comments, I felt some of them were reactive and not related to my question. I can dig out my Thoth deck and point out all the things I think showed a technical lack or whatever. The thing is if you go to art school you see a LOT of kids just starting out who use the same forms, techniques, off-looking figures that are done from photos, no-faces, swirlies, poorly done hands and feet. Whats the point of my going through the deck, and commenting on individual cards. I did also answer your questions that stuck out. The Steiner geometry is fine and apparent in her work. That her peers described her as "qualified" and talented like you were trying to establish is fair enough, but not apparent, at least in the Thoth deck.
You are correct that i didnt look at the links, because of my mild frustration with your posts.
I apologize and will look at them.

Having said this, your own comments about the lack of craftspeople in the Thelema groups you were overseeing, is more to the point of my question and I enjoyed reading them.

Closrapexa, i did see her tracing boards when I did a goodle image search. A tracing board is used in a post-initiation explanation of the meaning of a masonic rite, degree, ritual etc.
They are preferable to me as they dont really show human figures (not her strong suit) and highlight her geometric strengths.

Also, this isnt about photorealism, but when you do get into representational imagery, as the Thoth deck does, and when there is an attempt at a certain level of realism, the weak-spots, which all artists have to struggle with such as hands and feet, proportion and gesture etc are unfortunately more apparent. I went to a Picasso exhibit and there were a ton of early paintings and drawings where you could see he still sucked at hands and feet. This is why the show was interesting and why so many of the images arent the ones we see in books. Eventually he got through that issue and you can see it in his work. His more stylized and cubist work, in large part was only so powerful because he was transcending limits of representation and seeing, not skipping them.

Personally I think Jean-Cocteau, an esotericist writer, film maker, designer etc, who made highly esoteric work, as well as used shocking subject matter such as gay sex and incest would have made a great GD or Thoth deck with just his minimal line drawings and little hints of colour. But what likely would have happened is that he would have also schooled Waite and Crowley on the importance of art to the work they were pursuing.
 

Kingdubrock

I once met Ciro Marchetti. He commented on how since tarot is such a niche market, decks are never painted by the best artists of any era. It is simply not as profitable as other artistic fields.

This coming from the most respected living tarot artist, it is arguable that no Tarot deck will ever measure up to the eye of any true professional. So I guess it's best to judge the art in its context rather than in a purely objective or technical point of view.

Fair enough. At the time when the original artisans were making marseille decks for example, the decks sold like hotcakes. :)
Im not sure how rich the old alchemists were but great artists were certainly involved in producing a lot of the images..
Hard to say, but I think you're right.
 

Kingdubrock

From Raven
"Edit: What I mean is, in the greater population ... paradigm and mind-set. eg. 'The Romantics' flooded (heralded, created ?) a new wave of mysticism through society generally, maybe more than any occult movement ?"

Right on. I agree.

Whats interesting is that Theosophy attracted many of the great artists (eg Miro), writers (eg Miller) and composers (eg Scriabin) of the day but the magic orders didnt seem to. Not sure why.
 

GryffinSong

I agree with the OP. There are many VERY popular decks that I have NO interest in, because the artwork is not accomplished enough for my taste.
 

Richard

From Raven
"Edit: What I mean is, in the greater population ... paradigm and mind-set. eg. 'The Romantics' flooded (heralded, created ?) a new wave of mysticism through society generally, maybe more than any occult movement ?"

Right on. I agree.

Whats interesting is that Theosophy attracted many of the great artists (eg Miro), writers (eg Miller) and composers (eg Scriabin) of the day but the magic orders didnt seem to. Not sure why.
Magical orders may be too regimented for most creative types. Originality demands flexibility. In fact, the discipline required to create a seventy-eight card tarot deck could be stifling. I don't think the Thoth deck is a fair representation of Frieda's expertise. Likewise, Pamela was a splendid illustrator, and there is probably more than one reason why the Waite deck is obviously less polished than her other productions.
 

ravenest

I didnt feel sensitive about your comments, I felt some of them were reactive and not related to my question.
Trying to define your question ... as was post #3
I can dig out my Thoth deck and point out all the things I think showed a technical lack or whatever.
No ... general criticism will do

The thing is if you go to art school you see a LOT of kids just starting out who use the same forms, techniques, off-looking figures that are done from photos, no-faces, swirlies, poorly done hands and feet.

Thank you ... yes I am with you now - I get it

Whats the point of my going through the deck, and commenting on individual cards. I did also answer your questions that stuck out. The Steiner geometry is fine and apparent in her work. That her peers described her as "qualified" and talented like you were trying to establish is fair enough, but not apparent, at least in the Thoth deck.

Well, I read and heard some artists like and appreciate her work... I just wanted to know the reason you didn't if it wasn't taste ... I am understanding now.

Its just that I have seen bad hands and messy work in big art galleries and got a little shocked <shrug>


You are correct that i didnt look at the links, because of my mild frustration with your posts.
I apologize and will look at them.

Mmmeh ... mostly pics you saw - tracing boards and stuff, just wondered if you saw her other stuff.
Having said this, your own comments about the lack of craftspeople in the Thelema groups you were overseeing, is more to the point of my question and I enjoyed reading them.

Well, when I figured what you seemed to be seeking I offered my experience
Closrapexa, i did see her tracing boards when I did a goodle image search. A tracing board is used in a post-initiation explanation of the meaning of a masonic rite, degree, ritual etc.
They are preferable to me as they dont really show human figures (not her strong suit) and highlight her geometric strengths.

I think a tracing board (which attempts to capture symbology of relevant stages of a rite, condensed into one moment in time) is a lot like a tarot card, but the tarot card is showing things other than just certain rites (although in the Thoth ... ;) )
Also, this isnt about photorealism, but when you do get into representational imagery, as the Thoth deck does, and when there is an attempt at a certain level of realism, the weak-spots, which all artists have to struggle with such as hands and feet, proportion and gesture etc are unfortunately more apparent. I went to a Picasso exhibit and there were a ton of early paintings and drawings where you could see he still sucked at hands and feet. This is why the show was interesting and why so many of the images arent the ones we see in books. Eventually he got through that issue and you can see it in his work. His more stylized and cubist work, in large part was only so powerful because he was transcending limits of representation and seeing, not skipping them.

Personally I think Jean-Cocteau, an esotericist writer, film maker, designer etc, who made highly esoteric work, as well as used shocking subject matter such as gay sex and incest would have made a great GD or Thoth deck with just his minimal line drawings and little hints of colour. But what likely would have happened is that he would have also schooled Waite and Crowley on the importance of art to the work they were pursuing.

Crowley might have wanted to show them his own great art and recite poetry to them ;) })
 

ravenest

From Raven
"Edit: What I mean is, in the greater population ... paradigm and mind-set. eg. 'The Romantics' flooded (heralded, created ?) a new wave of mysticism through society generally, maybe more than any occult movement ?"

Right on. I agree.

Whats interesting is that Theosophy attracted many of the great artists (eg Miro), writers (eg Miller) and composers (eg Scriabin) of the day but the magic orders didnt seem to. Not sure why.

Magic orders are very different from Theosophy and not mainstream like Co-masonry, Freemasonry or Buddhism so there are a lot less members as well.

Still, I love the work done in these places

One modern Thelemic artist I know of is Harry Smith

http://www.philiptaaffe.info/Interv...h-Taaffe/hvnly_tree_all_jpegs/Smith-Tree2.jpg

I guess the closest thing to a ‘Thelemic temple artist’ I know of would be Gen. J. F. C. Fuller . Some of his art adorns some OTO Thelemic works - I really like his stuff ;

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CUZpztIIhyk/Sf7bhE65QlI/AAAAAAAAAHY/RZd0LaPQjHs/s1600-h/baphomet21.jpg

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...h=401#q=Art+of+J+F+C+Fuller&tbm=isch&imgdii=_

But .... wow ! ;

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/47/183424861_1a2c0d0822_z.jpg?zz=1