Decks that use pre-existing images

[Shade]

In the thread about the 1,001 Nights deck Riccardo brought up an interestng point that I want to explore further. So as not to derail that thread I thought I'd start something new. In regards to the 1,001 Night's use of images froma book Riccardo said:

Well... it's not easy to answer, especially in English.

Anyway, it all comes to deck using pre-existing images.
In case of some decks - like Harmonious Tarot for instance - the image themselves have been modified in order to better accomodate a Tarot structure.

In other cases - like 1001 nights - that was not possible. The Tarot adaptation has been done taking what already existed in the way it was, by a work of careful (or not so careful) selection. So, if the image was wide angled, once forced into the space of a card may seem little or clutterd. On the other side, images taken as particulars from bigger images may seem larger or less defined.

...

I'm sorry if I'm not the one to better give any explanation on this kind of deck, but I actually don't like decks using pre-existing images. They have powerful "pros"... like cost (definitely less than creating a deck anew) and the opportunity to rediscover lost or forgotten art (like the 1001 nights).
Yet, I think those deck definitely lack something important.

I agree with Riccardo. Whenever I see a deck that uses art that wasn't created ith Tarot in mind I wonder how useful it will be. For example, on this site we've talked about what images would make a great Star Wars deck with images used directly from the films as the cards. For that project I think we could get about half of the cards to work perfectly and resonate with meaning. Another 30% could probably be stretched to a place where experienced tarot readers would see where it was headed and then just reformat things in their mind to coincide with a RWS version of the card. The other 20% would probably feel like filler where people were desperately seeking something that looked vaguely like the tarot card image.

I think in these types of decks the greater emphasis tends to be trying to find an image that coincides with a RWS clone deck than on communicating some great tarot "truth." I know there are a great number of decks that feature the work of the renaissance masters and that the original imagery has been modified slightly to get it to work as tarot... but is that ever as useful as something that began its life just as tarot?

What do people think?

 

[Cerulean]

The Lord of the Rings Tarot...Taiwanese version...

...it's like the anime tarots, where the snapshots of the manga or cover art sometimes coincidentally fit into a RWS concept of a card. Of course, if you are a fan of a certain character-actor-film combination, to have a suit devoted to all aspects of Legolas might be not just be enough-- a tarot/Legolas fanatic could find shots that would make for a complete Legolas-(what was that actor's name?)-LOTR tarot.

I found the manga Tarot Cafe quite interesting because I tried a similar concept in some storyboarding exercises...can the existing tarot images become as a staged concept be strung together for a great storyline? This approaches the tarot as a body of work that is reinterpreted in a context of a story.

More later, gotta rush back to work.

Will check later--thanks for an intriguing thread.

 

[HearthCricket]

Shade-I agree with you. For example, as much as I adore my Golden Tarot, and find the readings accurate and the deck gorgeous and well done, it isn't quite as "pure" as a reading from something like the Gilded or decks whose illustrations are/were specifically made for tarot. A lot will go with taste, both that of the reader and that of the creater of the deck. The Golden has a lot of taste to it, and a lot of thought going into it. Other decks, maybe not so much. But I do feel a difference when working with the two types of decks. The borrowed images may need a bit more of a forced reading, if that makes any sense!

 

[Grigori]

I still want a Buffy Tarot though...

The Golden is one of my favorite decks, so I am a little biased. But I think the idea that a non-original series of images cannot be used as well for divination is flawed. However I also think that the meanings are affected and are different (as with any deck of course). Trying to maintain a RWS set of interpretation for images that are not the RWS seems a bit pointless.

One of the things I previously wanted to change with the Golden, is to apply the system of astrological concordances that I use. More recently I've come to appreciate it being seperate from that tradition, as the difference in the cards thenselves could conflict with that system, and the differences in the cards are of more value to me when reading anyway.

I am fairly consistently annoyed at decks like Star Wars, Buffy etc.. as the characters really do not line up with the traditional tarot meanings. I don't think that should stop these character being used in a deck (pretty please.....), but I think they'd sit better with me in an oracle that is self-referencing, rather than being warped to fit into another specific tradition. The beneift of using these characteers is the association that come with them. To disregard that in favor of someone else's system, again, seem pointless.

 

[Cerulean]

Interesting that you both brought up the Golden...

...which to me is Kat Black's innovative merging different historical images from Warburg fine art databases to blend with a RWS synthesis. In a way, Ciro Marchetti's study of thousands of images on Aeclectic to build his own study of the tarot seems to me to be similar--although his digital canvas blends with real photographic modelled images also yielded something quite different!

The art-twist kinds of tarots seem to me more blended and tarotlike than movie or anime tarots that accidently sometimes fit into a tarot structure.

The use of existing art to fit a tarot format include: Greco-Roman images (various), International Gothic (as in Kat Black) or Renaissance-to-Romantic (Oliver Bursten/Jane Lyle's Lovers Tarot). These are art theme tarots that I like that seem to use existing art as close as they can to tarot structure.. Examples are art theme tarots that seem to draw inspiration from Egyptian papyruses (Laura Tuan/Sylvana Alasia), Celtic knotwork (Courtney Davis), and even sculpture from cities (Tarot of Paris). Some people are even drawing from older prehistoric cultures to illustrate tarotlike archetypes...

Just my take from the other side of the coin.

Cerulean

 

[Grigori]

I really agree with you Cerulean. Perhaps art that has been manipulaated in such as way as with the Golden is different than taking an image whole from modern culture.

I can see that the lady in the Golden death is from a painting of Mary, but am able to leave those associations behind and address the image itself. While an image of Willow, will also be an image of Willow and all that that entails for me.

Perhaps we both mention the Golden, as (IMHO) its the most effective of the decks that use pre-existing images as both a piece of art and a working deck.

 

[Khaelo]

I really agree with you Cerulean. Perhaps art that has been manipulaated in such as way as with the Golden is different than taking an image whole from modern culture.

Agreed here as well. To me, a collage deck like Golden or Victoria Regina doesn't quite qualify as "pre-existing images." Obviously, the components are pre-existing, but the collaged image was created with Tarot in mind. The intent of the collager introduces that inherant Tarotiness to the whole image, regardless of the origin of individual parts ("inherant Tarotiness" being an attempt to name the "something important" Riccardo mentions ).

The Vargo Gothic, to my understanding, is an example of a pre-existing image deck, slightly modified to fit Tarot. I like it overall, but some of those images do not work for me. I do wonder if knowing that the images were created for another purpose makes a difference in how I look at a deck. When I don't like a card of an original image deck (i.e. the High Priestess of the Gilded), I can still respect it as a Tarot interpretation because I know it was created for Tarot (the Priestess's weird bendiness imitates the crescent moon). In the Vargo Gothic, I can sometimes stretch a card's meaning to fit the image...but sometimes I feel like I'm going to too much work for an image that is essentially empty of Tarot symbolism (i.e the Empress of the Gothic). It seems like Vargo's body of work simply didn't include an Empress-like figure, so they slotted in this strange, scared lady because they needed a female on that card.

I can't read an artist's mind just from the art I see in a Tarot deck. But I try anyway and knowing whether a deck's images are created specifically for Tarot or whether they are pulled from a pre-existing body of work does influence how I view "problem" cards.

 

[Emeraldgirl]

Agreed here as well. To me, a collage deck like Golden or Victoria Regina doesn't quite qualify as "pre-existing images." Obviously, the components are pre-existing, but the collaged image was created with Tarot in mind. The intent of the collager introduces that inherant Tarotiness to the whole image, regardless of the origin of individual parts ("inherant Tarotiness" being an attempt to name the "something important" Riccardo mentions ).

I totally agree with this. These decks are collages of many many images not just one painting/picture/movie scene (Although there are some painting out there that would make great cards)

 

[RiccardoLS]

The "decks using images" and the "collage" decks share - imho- the fct you cannot do what you want. You are forced to adapt, maybe modify, possibly transform... but in the end the process of creating the deck is much much different.
The limit is not your imagination but what you have available.

I can quote collage deck (Arnell's Ando Transformational just to say my preferred one) that really got through this limit and used the medium to its full expression, but on average I'm not too keen on them.
And the same to "pre-existing images" deck. I can see when the menaing bended to accomodate the image and not the other way round.
Quoting "Khaelo", it is not just the Tarot intent that makes the difference, but the degree to which that intent could express itself.

On average, then, I tend not to like - very personal opinion - these kind of decks, while I understand they have advantages.
(like Buffy Tarot, for instance... I just got back from a comic book fair where I have seen a girl walking around carrying a tombstone with written: "here lies Buffy Summers, she saved the world - a lot") ^_^