Devil and Tower

[olivia1]

Hello All,
Awhile back ago, Thirteen gave us all some really interesting card combination which,when paired with the Tower, could indicate suicide.
I was wondering if you see Devil and Tower if that could also indicate suicide... or no?

Prior to learning about the combinations that could indicate suicide, I thought that it could simply mean that the person is going through the painful process of trying to beat an addiction. However, now I wonder if some of you would take that to mean that the individual is considering killing themselves because the addiction is too powerful?

Or perhaps the cards are suggesting that the addiction will lead to the downfall of this person (though not necessarily with death)? I was going to ask in the other thread, but wasn't sure if it would be off topic to ask, so I decided to start a new one.

 

[nisaba]

Or perhaps the cards are suggesting that the addiction will lead to the downfall of this person (though not necessarily with death)? I was going to ask in the other thread, but wasn't sure if it would be off topic to ask, so I decided to start a new one.

I would go there, for starters. Then I'd probably wander off down the line that the Devil is the personnification of hte client's addiction itself, what the addiction would be if it were a separate entity (which any addict will tell you, it is).

I spent a number of years dealing with an addicted SO, and in the beginning she at least pretended to have an interest in beating the addiction (or perhaps just in placating me). At least until the relationship became *really* horrible, she was inclined to check herself into detox clinics from time to time. One of her counsellors, a famous Aussie footie star so I won't name him, came up with rather a nice way of viewing addiction and withdrawal symptoms (which are terrible and not in the mind at all): he used to say that when you do a detox, the addiction starts to die, and like any dying creature it fights viciously for any chance of staying alive, and all the pain of withdrawal is, like cravings, simply the dying throes of the addiction. If you can get through withdrawal, and then look every craving afterwards in the face and know it to be a sign that the creature that is the addiction itself is dying, then you can face it and beat it.

Didn't work on my lady, but then she was never serious about getting clean.

When he was talking that through, I kept seeing images of various Devil-cards from different decks in my mind's eye, something I wasn't able to discuss with her because she hated Tarot <sob>.

And when I wander through society and see drug-damaged individuals, there's always something of the Devil not in them exactly, but hanging around them, controlling them. They become the chained creatures at his feet, with the addiction or previous addiction as the Devil himself. Having Tarot come alive in every aspect of your life is both a blessing and a curse - I categorise people mostly by card, these days <sigh>.

 

[Grizabella]

If I had been using the cards proficiently when my late husband was alive and had known of his recent relapse with heroin addiction just before his death, I'd certainly have been able to associate the Devil and Tower with what happened next. As an alcoholic whose recovery will hit 25 years in a few months, though, and having lived with a couple of addicts as well as knowing and dealing with many more, I disagree with the idea that we can truthfully say another person isn't serious about getting into recovery. It may seem to an outsider that it's as simple as a decision to stop but it isn't. Only the addict knows and a lot of times, they're serious about it but just can't beat the Devil. It's very complicated.

The Devil certainly is associated with addiction, and the Tower I'd have associated with that massive injection of heroin that killed him if he hadn't been my beloved, but I don't know if I could have foreseen his death because it was such a horrible ending that I wouldn't have wanted to or been able to read it. I'd have been too far into denial, probably. For someone else I could probably read those two cards that way.

 

[olivia1]

I would go there, for starters. Then I'd probably wander off down the line that the Devil is the personnification of hte client's addiction itself, what the addiction would be if it were a separate entity (which any addict will tell you, it is)...

I kept seeing images of various Devil-cards from different decks in my mind's eye, something I wasn't able to discuss with her because she hated Tarot <sob>.

And when I wander through society and see drug-damaged individuals, there's always something of the Devil not in them exactly, but hanging around them, controlling them. They become the chained creatures at his feet, with the addiction or previous addiction as the Devil himself.

That's a great image, nisaba. I really wouldn't have even thought to tie in the drug addicted individuals I used to see on the streets to the image of the Devil and the 2 individuals chained together but it really does fit.

The Devil certainly is associated with addiction, and the Tower I'd have associated with that massive injection of heroin that killed him if he hadn't been my beloved, but I don't know if I could have foreseen his death because it was such a horrible ending that I wouldn't have wanted to or been able to read it. I'd have been too far into denial, probably. For someone else I could probably read those two cards that way.

So a possible overdose... Yes, I know what you mean. When I saw this combination, I suspected that was it was something serious but I wanted to be an optimist so I tried to change the meaning to "they'll beat the addiction but it'll mean tearing down their defenses/resistance and having to basically rebuild their lives all over again after it was shattered by the addiction."

Thank you both for sharing your very personal and moving stories.

 

[Grizabella]

Another aspect of the Tower is falling from your high horse down into humiliation---hitting bottom, so to speak. Falling from your high position in the top of the Tower down into the dust with everyone else. People sometimes commit suicide over that, too.

Or how about a suicide bomber blowing up the tower?

 

[Thirteen]

Hello All,
Awhile back ago, Thirteen gave us all some really interesting card combination which,when paired with the Tower, could indicate suicide.
I was wondering if you see Devil and Tower if that could also indicate suicide... or no?

Let's keep in mind that I made that list for a "What cards might indicate suicide" And I included Death in most of those combinations. My point was that there were different ways and reasons for suicide, and that there's no one combination that could indicate it, OR that those combinations that could indicate it would always indicate it.

The Devil + Tower was mentioned in that thread, and I actually had reservations about that one. I'd agree that it could indicate someone addicted to drugs and "killing themselves." But that's a little different from someone taking a gun and going off alone to die. The addict, as Nisaba pointed out, doesn't want to give up the addiction no matter what it's doing to them. They aren't necessarily shooting drugs into themselves with intent to die.

Devil + Tower would, to me, indicate addiction leading to disaster of many kinds--financial, breaking up the family, losing job, health, etc. It might not lead to the person killing themselves. I'd have to get the Death card or something like the 10/Swords to say to the person, "Keep going and you're gonna die..."

Now, of course, each reader has their own associations and biases, but my own was also against the Devil + Tower because I don't consider suicide a sin. I would have reservations making that sort of judgement on the act. Others do consider it a sin, something no god loving person should do under any circumstances, and they might view this combination as apt.

 

[Grizabella]

My husband did it with the intent to die and so have countless other addicts. Addiction is hell and if you can't quit, you know it's going to kill you anyway so you want to just end the misery.

 

[Thirteen]

Just to add, by the way, your optimism may not be wrong. Addicts often have to hit rock bottom, get one huge wake-up call, to want to come clean.

The Tower coming down, that flash of lightening, could indicate a falsehood coming down. Like "I can quit any time..." or "I'm in control..." or "I'm not an alcoholic...." The Tower (this lie you're telling to yourself), is going to come crashing down and you're going to realize the truth about yourself and your addiction.

Now, whether or not this realization will lead to the person getting help or deciding that there is no help and, well, continuing to kill themselves depends on what card you get after that Devil + Tower combination. The Star, for example, would mean the person seeking help and healing.

 

[Thirteen]

My husband did it with the intent to die and so have countless other addicts. Addiction is hell and if you can't quit, you know it's going to kill you anyway so you want to just end the misery.

I didn't say that there was NEVER intent to die. But my point was that the combination, in and of itself, might not mean suicide or intent to die. It could just mean addiction leading to disaster or, contrariwise, to waking up and smelling the addiction.

My point was that I was leery of this combination, in and of itself, indicating that the person was trying to slowly kill themselves with drugs. And that I wouldn't read it that way without the Death card there as well. Because just because a person is addicted and heading toward disaster doesn't mean that they want to die or are trying to kill themselves.

They might be. But they just as well might not be. What comes after the Tower is important.

 

[nisaba]

If I had been using the cards proficiently when my late husband was alive and had known of his recent relapse with heroin addiction just before his death, I'd certainly have been able to associate the Devil and Tower with what happened next. As an alcoholic whose recovery will hit 25 years in a few months, though, and having lived with a couple of addicts as well as knowing and dealing with many more, I disagree with the idea that we can truthfully say another person isn't serious about getting into recovery. It may seem to an outsider that it's as simple as a decision to stop but it isn't. Only the addict knows and a lot of times, they're serious about it but just can't beat the Devil. It's very complicated.

I'm aware of that. In this particular case, I *am* certain. Her addiction was a deliberate, conscious form of suicide, frequently punctuated with more radical forms of suicide like trying to drown herself, trying to smash herself up in a car, trying to amputate a hand with a power-saw so that she'd bleed out.

And every time - every SINGLE time - she discussed maybe doing a detox in the future, the crafty, cunning look she used for her bigger lies would cross her face. And such suggestions would only be raised when it looked as if I might take extraordinary action to be rid of her, rendering her homeless and without my income to drink her way through.

Yup, she never once intended to detox, not in the years I knew her. Maybe before that.

Of course, the Tower was the night she tried to pour petrol on a sleeping child and set fire to her because I called her to account for stolen money. She took it just one step too far, and lost a roof over her head and extra income to drink. Didn't end up in gaol, though, except for overnight.