Help, I'm a RWS prisoner

[Riccardo]

Hi all,

my name is Riccardo, I'm italian and actually studing Tarots with great passion. Had read Joan Bunning's "Learning the Tarots" and now I'm reading "78 degrees of wisdom", then I've already bought Mary Greer's "Tarot for yourself" which is going to be the next one. Before those I read some italian books but sadly found them not comparable with the americans. The americans are just far better and my interest and understanding of the cards grew a lot reading them. I felt like I've no other choice than to study and follow the americans and just had a little bit of relief thinking that probably some important politicians felt the same in much more dramatical situations.

I'm studing the RWS deck cause all the books I mentioned before are based over it but I'd like to learn to read even with my Marseille or my Ancient Italian Tarot. About the decks the situation is different than that of the books , we have many nice ancient italian decks and I own few of them , as italian I obviously would like to learn to use even a national deck or a Marseille, which isn't italian but very near.

So I'd like to know from some experienced readers if you think that is correct to apply the meanings i'm actually learning on the american (and RWS based) books using a Marseille or a Soprafino. I know that a reading is based on intuition and isn't just a mechanical apply of learned meanings but I think that is impossible to develop an intuition without having before a solid knowledge.

I thought this translation of meanings was possible to do but when i tried to read with my Ancient Italian and found the pips my mind went straight to the pictorial image of the RWS and it was a little bit weird cause I realized I was reading a deck thinking to another one !! And in this sense I felt to be somehow prisoner of the RWS deck (that by the way I like very much).

I'm sorry for the bad english and hope someone will suggest me something, maybe some good books I can find in italian or in english about the TdM.

 

[Abrac]

I thought this translation of meanings was possible to do but when i tried to read with my Ancient Italian and found the pips my mind went straight to the pictorial image of the RWS and it was a little bit weird cause I realized I was reading a deck thinking to another one !!

Hey Riccardo

I hear a lot of people say this happens to them. The thing about the RWS is that it was designed with divination/fortune telling in mind. A lot of the older decks were not. They were designed for playing card games. The RWS's success as a divination deck speaks for itself.

Unfortunately I don't know of any books that might help. I only use the RWS for reading.

Best of luck.

Abrac

 

[Umbrae]

So I'd like to know from some experienced readers if you think that is correct to apply the meanings i'm actually learning on the american (and RWS based) books using a Marseille or a Soprafino. I know that a reading is based on intuition and isn't just a mechanical apply of learned meanings but I think that is impossible to develop an intuition without having before a solid knowledge.

(as we say…) Just do it. Some may tell you that it is wrong to apply WCS book meanings to a TdM or Italian deck…but really…

It does not matter if it’s a jib, a spinnaker, a mainsail or a topsail…they all catch the wind – which moves the boat. Of course we don’t really need a sail until we get to Pisa – we could just allow the current to ‘take’ us. However one cannot steer in the current – one needs to go faster than the current to steer.

And of course once you move out into deep water, you’ll need the experience learned with the sail.

Now some will tell you that it’s a silly analogy – but the true history of ‘meanings of modern tarot cards’ have their root in TdM. So just do it – and enjoy it.

(and journal your thoughts…)

 

[Rosanne]

Hi Riccardo- Welcome to the Forum. I have seen it said here many times- get a RWS, because most of what is written about Tarot in English is RWS based.
Some people like me learned with RWS, without books on Tarot at all, because they were not available for them. So they learned Tarot by learning about numbers and symbols, journalling things down, and history etc. The same could be said of TdM. Think about what RWS must have based on in 1905? what was available to the Artist-Tdm and Renaissance decks and learning about numbers and symbols and Intuition.
I like Umbrae's analogy of sailing- but first just get in the Boat!
I personally like Italian decks both modern and ancient, but I think TdM from France started it all somewhere, sometime, without a book.
Enjoy your journey!
~Rosanne

 

[Moonbow]

If you are happy to see the 4 of cups WCS image in your mind while reading with a Marseilles or Italian deck then that is your choice. I tried it once but it didn't work for me. It's difficult enough to try and remember someone else's meanings for cards let alone applying them to a completely different deck. I found that I hesitated over the meanings until the right image came into my head.

If you want to read intuitively, then look very carefully at each card and make your own notes. Look at the flora on the pips, the shapes they form, the buds and flowers and the stages that they are at. The colours if you like, and what those colours may mean to you. You could also use numerology to help you, or link the pip number back to it's Major and see if that works for you. Or think about the implement and jot down the thoughts that come to you for each one.

My advise would be to choose one deck and put the others away and work on that one deck while journalling. You will gradually start to find your own meanings which you will remember because they are 'yours'. I think that there is a difference between 'remembering' card meanings, and 'reading' cards.

It's a good idea to look at the threads here in this forum and see how others come to their conclusions on a card, but I would advise that you have to make your own... it's very freeing.

Try various methods, and then make up your own mind as to what suits you. You won't be wrong.

 

[Papageno]

Hi all,

Before those I read some italian books but sadly found them not comparable with the americans. The americans are just far better and my interest and understanding of the cards grew a lot reading them. I felt like I've no other choice than to study and follow the americans and just had a little bit of relief thinking that probably some important politicians felt the same in much more dramatical situations.

.

an interesting commentary considering that many of the best and most beautiful cards in my collection are Italian. the tradition is still so strong there. perhaps the learning process is different, more of a oral tradition passed down from one generation to another, the hereditary tradition is very prevalent in the Italian arts.

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Hi Riccardo,

I understand what you mean.

You should try Bolognese card-reading. It is the oldest tradition known, but it has only been published since the late 1980s. It is not like TdM, but it uses native Italian cards, although only 45 of them. You could easily expand it into more, once you understand the system. But you might not need to.

I enthusiastically recommend Terry Zanetti's book "La Divinazione", which is part 2 of the book "Il tarocchino di Bologna" by Andrea Vitali and Terry Zanetti, published by Edizioni Martina, Bologna, in 2005.
I have put all of the historical meanings (translated into English) at the Tarotpedia page
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/index.php/Bolognese_Tarot_Divination

- of course you don't need those, but you may like it anyway.

I don't recommend Ingallati's book as much (from 2000), but she has tried to bring TdM style meanings into her system. But it is not as pure as the Bolognese tradition Zanetti details and develops.

I am sure that some scholars now think tarot could have been invented in Firenze, but there is still a chance for Bologna.

Finally, you could try the late Brian Williams' book on the Minchiate deck, which really is a Florentine system. Although it is American, Williams was a true Italophile, and his love of Italian art and symbolism, and above all tarocchi, shines through in everything he wrote.

Here is a review at tarotpassages
http://www.tarotpassages.com/minchiate.htm

You can buy the deck with the 272-page book at tarotpassages amazon link of course,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0892816511/ref=nosim/aeclectic/

But for a true Italian system, which you will be free to expand upon and develop, and even find a teacher in doing it, I recommend the Bolognese system.

Good luck!

Ross

 

[Lleminawc]

book by Lee Bursten?

I believe there is a new book on the TdM coming out soon, which I'm very much looking forward to: Lee Bursten's companion book to Lo Scarabeo's Universal Tarot of Marseille. However, it's proving difficult to find out when it's due to be published.

 

[Fulgour]

You should try Bolognese card-reading. It is the oldest tradition known, but it has only been published since the late 1980s. It is not like TdM, but it uses native Italian cards, although only 45 of them.

Would RWS suggested divinatory interpretations
work for a TdM...the answer: read with dominos.

I think I got the question right, but what is this?
Tarot has 78 cards, and is older than the 1980s.

Good Luck, Riccardo! May your 'Stars' guide you!

 

[Riccardo]

Thank you for your answers and wishes,

I never meant that i'm going to use RWS suggested divinatory meanings for reading with TdM, just said that I started to work with a TdM (Burdel) instead of the previous RWS deck while I'm reading american RWS based books and have to find my way to combine the two things.

My personal opinion is that every reading is a creative activity. How could be possible to repeat like a parrot learned meanings when the combination of the cards is always different and you have to link them all and interpret them as a whole ?? To make this creative activity is necessary to use intuition so for me a non-intuitive reading is just impossible whatever deck is used.

I think also that to develop an intuition is very useful if not necessary a knowledge of the tradition, the ancient and the recent one, the tradition of the meanings as well as numerology, history and so on. Or maybe is it possible that a card or a reading interpretation can come out like an illumination without a knowledge of those traditions?? I'm studing these matters and seems to me that the recent tradition who is very interesting cause brings a new prospective is almost american and consequently referred to the RWS deck and I wont avoid it even if I intend to work with a TdM cause I prefer much more not to have illustrated pips.

Of the RWS I will miss only the Empress cause she is so sexy.

Thank you for your advices, will follow them. Ciao,

Riccardo