Reina de Copas
May I just thank all contributors to this thread for their time and expertise. I'm learning so much from it. And I will buy your book, Andy.
I am completely new to Lenormand
Nina*
I have to say this does sound counter intuitive to me also, and is something I am working through to understand. I totally understand that Andy has a grounded base in this aspect of reading far/near so do not decry it. But at face value it feels a little counter-intuitive to me, and is something I know I need to work with to see how it feels long term.
My instincts? I just can't help but feel anything far away is either not having much by way of significant impact, or is not relevant to the querant at that time. If it were near to the querant I would see it as being more impactive. For sure if Mice were close to the querant, and was also surrounded by positive cards, that in itself may show a good outcome from a loss, but if it were with negative cards, that take would not be one that would be at the forefront of my mind. Just my thoughts anyways.
With regards the rules that may apply to Lenormand, I have a folder of typed notes whereby I have a lot of the rules set out. Mainly for reading a GT (I prefer to call them steps) and TBH - I know I will not use them all. I dowse to see which steps I need to use and use them. I certainly don't want to tie myself up with HAVING to use them all, just because........ It will cause me to wonder why am I doing this, and in turn will lead to disillusion and loss of enjoyment. I am not going to be breaking rules or bending rules, but will be picking which rules I apply at any given time. Does that make me an oracle reader instead of a Lenormand reader? I hope not.
So for sure it is unlikely I will be mirroring or knighting. Because if I haven't got the information I need by that point, utilising all the other steps (I think I have 11 possibles) then it is a sorry state of affairs. So I don't get hung up on rules. Rana's book certainly lifted my spirits on that score. She doesn't brow beat any into you as a reader/learner and having read it, I now feel somewhat liberated to be my own reader. But I will still acknowledge where Lenormand has come from and work within that tradition. (If that makes sense
With regards being a newbie to Lenormand, I think I am seeing a lot more of the experienced readers being defensive than I have ever witnessed with newbies to Tarot. It can come across as a little intimidating, finger wagging, judgemental. I am not singling anyone out for this - it is a generalisation of how I just feel, having been a newbie for the past 13 months. I maybe very, very wrong but I just hope newbies are not put off posting anything through fear of being judged or criticised. This may be due to the fact it is a relatively new system to some parts of the world, whereas to others it is something that has been part of their culture for many, many years. Maybe it is because of this I can see a distinct hierachal set up, and there seems to be some aloofness linked with it. The top tier I see as being those who have been involved with Lenormand for heck knows how many years. And for years, they would have had domain established with little or no outside intrusion.
Then the middle level of readers who have been involved for a few years so have some background, but do not have the grounding the first tier readers have. They may have also adapted or tweaked things, added things etc in line with their cultures, background etc.
Then we have the other tier - the newbies. And for us it is difficult. Because all too often, we see the sometimes heated dialogues between members of the other two 'tiers', get conflicting advice etc. Sometimes the advice is not real advice. It comes in the form of "you should have used xxx amount of cards, you should have used xxx spread, you should have read xxx pairing" etc and this can be very soul destroying. I have been aware of advice and guidance given here regarding tarot to newbies but I don't see it as being quite so blunt or prescriptive.
So I finish with my plea here on behalf of newbies. If you respond with insights, guidance, suggestions, are they supportive or prescriptive? Because when you receive just the latter, it will not do much for the confidence of those who are wanting to learn, who have been brave enough to share a spread or question. Let's keep AT a friendly place. One which supports, encourages and nurtures. I think where Lenormand is concerned there is some room for development where newbies are given the similar mentoring as their tarot cousins.
Hope I am not going to be lambasted for this posting. I really want everyone to feel part of the Lenormand family, but at the moment it doesn't quite have the vibe I would like to see. Maybe in years to come things will settle eh. I am guessing the tarot world has gone through similar, but having become more mainstream globally, everyone is pretty much in the same boat now.
Wonderful post, shadowdancer, and exactly what I've been thinking.
It does seem to me that according to all this, even Rana doesn't read Lenormand and would probably do better with Kipper cards (since she, in her book, doesn't say those above rules are a must to read Lenormand).
I will certainly try the distance thing, but if it doesn't ring true to me, I'm STILL reading Lenormand cards.
andybc
Everything that is something has a core. Something that makes them unique rather than an off shoot of something else. For Lenormand its proximity as outlined by the original instructions which also defines the meanings. It's what is called a primary source.
Lenormand’s identity is wound up with the Philippe Lenormand sheet which is what definied what it is, and what keeps it being something else. That is the trunk of the Lenormand tree off which branches grow of popularised progressions such as Malkiel Dietrich, Erna Droesbeke, and more recently Rana George (she does include the distance meanings under the GT heading, and this is how she learnt too). If you look at meanings provided by Iris Treppner or Colette Silvestre who never mention distance specifically they are can be traced back.
The implication of your statement is that those of us who learnt traditionally just blindly swallowed dogma and that this is counter intuitive. Intuition is the immediate cognition of learnt facts, so learning the method is actually what allows you to be intuitive.
I have always said and feel that there is a distinction between reading Lenormand and just using a Lenormand pack. I don't believe one is better than the other, but that they are different. It is obvious for you the latter works better, and that is great. But it is not the same as Erna or Malkiel or Rana who despite being different work from the same core.
If you reflect and then reinvent it ceases to be the former and only the latter. Is it better? Lenormand has survived for over 150 years without people changing it and just building on those original meanings that were published with over 95 % of decks up until the 1940s.
If someone does not get on with one method - whether it is Lenormand, petit-Etteilla or Kipper or Crowley's Tarot versus Papus - then the method is not for them. What is wrong with them exploring something else? It's okay for something to not work for one person without having to make a square peg fit a round hole.
Actually, we do know she used piquet's rule. In the past several people included myself have translated a reading she records in one of her books (Les oracles sibyllins) where she uses the parlour piquet rules and methods.
There is also more than one Mountain to climb. It seems you are climbing a different one to Seraphina. May you be successful.
andybc
She does say the those same rules, I read and reviewed her book. We have also discussed the distance method in past.
Rana learnt from a French translation of PL sheet that came with a Dondorf pattern deck.
andybc
I have to say this does sound counter intuitive to me also, and is something I am working through to understand. I totally understand that Andy has a grounded base in this aspect of reading far/near so do not decry it. But at face value it feels a little counter-intuitive to me, and is something I know I need to work with to see how it feels long term.
My instincts? I just can't help but feel anything far away is either not having much by way of significant impact, or is not relevant to the querant at that time. If it were near to the querant I would see it as being more impactive. For sure if Mice were close to the querant, and was also surrounded by positive cards, that in itself may show a good outcome from a loss, but if it were with negative cards, that take would not be one that would be at the forefront of my mind. Just my thoughts anyways.
With regards the rules that may apply to Lenormand, I have a folder of typed notes whereby I have a lot of the rules set out. Mainly for reading a GT (I prefer to call them steps) and TBH - I know I will not use them all. I dowse to see which steps I need to use and use them. I certainly don't want to tie myself up with HAVING to use them all, just because........ It will cause me to wonder why am I doing this, and in turn will lead to disillusion and loss of enjoyment. I am not going to be breaking rules or bending rules, but will be picking which rules I apply at any given time. Does that make me an oracle reader instead of a Lenormand reader? I hope not.
So for sure it is unlikely I will be mirroring or knighting. Because if I haven't got the information I need by that point, utilising all the other steps (I think I have 11 possibles) then it is a sorry state of affairs. So I don't get hung up on rules. Rana's book certainly lifted my spirits on that score. She doesn't brow beat any into you as a reader/learner and having read it, I now feel somewhat liberated to be my own reader. But I will still acknowledge where Lenormand has come from and work within that tradition. (If that makes sense
With regards being a newbie to Lenormand, I think I am seeing a lot more of the experienced readers being defensive than I have ever witnessed with newbies to Tarot. It can come across as a little intimidating, finger wagging, judgemental. I am not singling anyone out for this - it is a generalisation of how I just feel, having been a newbie for the past 13 months. I maybe very, very wrong but I just hope newbies are not put off posting anything through fear of being judged or criticised. This may be due to the fact it is a relatively new system to some parts of the world, whereas to others it is something that has been part of their culture for many, many years. Maybe it is because of this I can see a distinct hierachal set up, and there seems to be some aloofness linked with it. The top tier I see as being those who have been involved with Lenormand for heck knows how many years. And for years, they would have had domain established with little or no outside intrusion.
Then the middle level of readers who have been involved for a few years so have some background, but do not have the grounding the first tier readers have. They may have also adapted or tweaked things, added things etc in line with their cultures, background etc.
Then we have the other tier - the newbies. And for us it is difficult. Because all too often, we see the sometimes heated dialogues between members of the other two 'tiers', get conflicting advice etc. Sometimes the advice is not real advice. It comes in the form of "you should have used xxx amount of cards, you should have used xxx spread, you should have read xxx pairing" etc and this can be very soul destroying. I have been aware of advice and guidance given here regarding tarot to newbies but I don't see it as being quite so blunt or prescriptive.
So I finish with my plea here on behalf of newbies. If you respond with insights, guidance, suggestions, are they supportive or prescriptive? Because when you receive just the latter, it will not do much for the confidence of those who are wanting to learn, who have been brave enough to share a spread or question. Let's keep AT a friendly place. One which supports, encourages and nurtures. I think where Lenormand is concerned there is some room for development where newbies are given the similar mentoring as their tarot cousins.
Hope I am not going to be lambasted for this posting. I really want everyone to feel part of the Lenormand family, but at the moment it doesn't quite have the vibe I would like to see. Maybe in years to come things will settle eh. I am guessing the tarot world has gone through similar, but having become more mainstream globally, everyone is pretty much in the same boat now.
The idea that something have a structure and rules being counter intuitive denies genuine intuition and keeps it divorced from intellection. They are not mutually exclusive but arise from each other. When I was actively teaching I never made my students' pick one set of meanings over another, just that they were consistent. The only meanings they had to learn was in the GT section for the method of distance, which is not a hardship, because whether you are using Iris or Erna or Colette Silvestre they or derive from the distance method.
As for the rest, I am sorry if you feel that way. Most traditional Lenormand readers are very welcoming of new people. The only thing is, there have been some zealous neophytes who just decided to breeze in and tell them they have done it wrong or our doing it in a stupid manner, that we are not intuitive, and several teachers quit. offering their courses to English speaking students.
Lenormand has a long history and is very well loved in its native Germany and also Holland and Belgium, where it is most popular outside of Germany. There it is bound up within culture. People do not generally like something that is bordering on appropriation.
Le Fanu
How did people learn in the past, pre-internet?
From one person, a mother, a grandmother, a wise man or woman in the village. This would then be internalised and honed by the reader themselves over many years.
How do people learn in the internet era?
Bombardment from various sources, pleas for help then not agreeing with the help, books and more books, online courses and webinars and study groups and rambling facebook exercises.
Is it any wonder people get confused? Surely the best thing for a newbie would be to select a source, bolt the door and learn in a dimly lit room at a secret location?
I don't participate in online Lenormand debates anymore.
Ooops, I just did
From one person, a mother, a grandmother, a wise man or woman in the village. This would then be internalised and honed by the reader themselves over many years.
How do people learn in the internet era?
Bombardment from various sources, pleas for help then not agreeing with the help, books and more books, online courses and webinars and study groups and rambling facebook exercises.
Is it any wonder people get confused? Surely the best thing for a newbie would be to select a source, bolt the door and learn in a dimly lit room at a secret location?
I don't participate in online Lenormand debates anymore.
Ooops, I just did
andybc
How did people learn in the past, pre-internet?
From one person, a mother, a grandmother, a wise man or woman in the village. This would then be internalised and honed by the reader themselves over many years.
How do people learn in the internet era?
Bombardment from various sources, pleas for help then not agreeing with the help, books and more books, online courses and webinars and study groups and rambling facebook exercises.
Is it any wonder people get confused? Surely the best thing for a newbie would be to select a source, bolt the door and learn in a dimly lit room at a secret location?
I don't participate in online Lenormand debates anymore.
Ooops, I just did
This is what a lot of people miss, Le Fanu. It is why I have always said stick to one source too- mixing and matching never helps as the cards' meanings often end up wonky.
No traditionalist reader says there is one and one only set of meanings. But most accept a concept of a primary core which is the PL sheet. You can trace Malkiel, Iris, Colette or Erna back to those.
I don't believe in the so-called schools just popularised off shoots. The idea of each nationality having a work card or sex card is stupid and doesn't hold up to scrutinity.
I learnt off my Aunt who read a bit differently to Bjorn Meuris or Chanah. But we do not believe each others' meanings or methods are, just off shoots of the same trunk. And when compared they are remarkably similar despite the fact our teachers never met or came from the same countries.
Izzydunne
Yes, we know that traditionalists love "THE SHEET." The holy grail of certain Lenormand readers. It is the beginning and the ending, the alpha and the omega. However, they may not realize that the finger pointed to the Moon is not the Moon. Or another way of saying this, is that "the map is not the terrain. The Sheet and its myriad of rules makes learning to read with Lenormand a challenging experience to say the least. 3 years to learn? Not necessary........unless you want to be a traditionalist (which is a fine thing, IF that is what one wants).
There is an easier path, and just as effective, because it allows the Divine to communicate easily and clearly with the reader. To each his/her own.
There is an easier path, and just as effective, because it allows the Divine to communicate easily and clearly with the reader. To each his/her own.
andybc
Divine or possibly just solipsism? Most people who start throwing that word around tend to be putting up a big wall in terms of debate. It sort of also denies the whole concept of "learning to read cards" if there is this immediate revelation.
But you know, the learning bit, I mistakenly thought it was important.
Also I know of several traditional readers who work solely with the PL sheet and traditional methods and are diviners working with the Lwa, ancestors, spirits, angels et cetera. Are these only mistakenly working with the divine?
Personally, I prefer to keep cartomancy to cartomancy and leave the divine if it exists to its own devices.
Barleywine
Ah, someone else knows who Alfred Korzbyski was
. From wiki:"Korzybski thought that people do not have access to direct knowledge of reality; rather they have access to perceptions and to a set of beliefs which human society has confused with direct knowledge of reality. Korzybski is remembered as the author of the dictum: "The map is not the territory."
Sounds like an unsympathetic decription of tarot, or ANY symbolic system.
I first came across this quote while reading a 1952 sci-fi novel titled "Limbo" by Bernard Wolfe. I wish I could find that one again . . .
