Is Tarot Pagan?

[DoctorArcanus]

What of the image of The Hanged Man?

If you are interested in the actual origin of that image, you can read what Robert O'Neill writes about it. The image of a traitor hanged by one foot was common in Medieval Italy and survived until the XVI Century, when Andrea Del Sarto produced a few beautiful sketches of this terrible type of execution.

Michael J. Hurst kindly posted the Andrea del Sarto images a few months ago.

Marco

 

[Rosanne]

The steps away is a very interesting way to describe the images Philebus!
That does seem more appropriate to explain it that way. I just puzzle at the way it is thought to be direct Christian allegory. I personally can see, and have presented it, as pairings for instance- Card 6 and 7 as Concord and Discord for example (Love and War).

Does it not seem odd to anyone that you have a game of the people, that shows a Christian allegory, when that would be so frowned upon? It does not seem like much fun for a start. ~Rosanne

 

[kwaw]

If you are interested in the actual origin of that image, you can read what Robert O'Neill writes about it. The image of a traitor hanged by one foot was common in Medieval Italy and survived until the XVI Century, when Andrea Del Sarto produced a few beautiful sketches of this terrible type of execution.

Michael J. Hurst kindly posted the Andrea del Sarto images a few months ago.

Marco

And its connection with the number XII, consistent across all pattern variations, connects with the biblical symbolism of the number XII as that of the traitor Judas (without necessarily implying that it is Judas, rather that through the association with Judas the number XII became associated as a reference to traitors in general - on the other hand in the medieval period Judas was conflated with Oedipus, who was pictured as an infant hanging upside down from one foot).

 

[DoctorArcanus]

We look for answers to why the La Papesse is so called for an example, and everyone comes up with a Christian idea (including me over the years) Mother Church, Faith, Charity, Mary Magdalene, Sister Manfreda, Pope Joan, Mrs Pope as in a pair- the list goes on. Why not classical Paganism as a priestess of Venus for example - that does not make Tarot occult- it just means another possible allegory that is not necessarily Christian at its heart.

A few years ago, I read here on ATF a note (by Ross, I think) that pointed out the similarity between the Visconti-Sforza Papess and the allegory of Faith (Fides) by Giotto in the Scrovegni Chapel (1306 ca).
I found the analogy perfectly convincing. I take images very seriously when talking about tarot. The Giotto image is more than one hundred years older than the Bembo image but they have many elements in common:

* they both hold a cross in the right hand
* they both hold a written text in the left hand
* they both wear a Tiara
* they are both dressed like nuns

Don't you think these similarities are relevant?

I never saw an ancient representation of a priestess of Venus that looked that similar to the Papesse. Since my ideas depend on the ancient images I see and the ancient texts I read, I do not find useful the idea of the Papesse as a Priestess of Venus. I would find very useful links to other early images or ancient texts that present so many analogies to Tarot cards. I like considering specific images and texts. Since I like them and I find them useful and convincing, I would like to read examples that are presented with the support of images and texts

In my opinion, the best bet for "priestess of Venus" is The Hypnerotomachia Poliphili. But that image is not as relevant as Giotto's because:

* the cross is missing (the cross is to me the most important symbol of the image, being held in the right hand)
* the written text in the left hand is missing
* the priestess is dressed like a queen, not like a nun
* The Hypnerotomachia (1499) is later than the Visconti Sforza tarot (1440 ca)

I think the Papesse is called "the papesse" (and not Faith, for instance) because the Tiara is a common symbol of Papacy and early cards did not have names written on them. Tarot was from its origin, or became very soon, a popular game, and it seems likely to me that most popular players missed the allegorical meaning of the image and gave to it a descriptive name that excluded the original meaning. This is not very different from Time (the old man with an hourglass in Visconti Sforza) that became an Hermit (because the hourglass was misinterpreted as a Lantern).

Marco

 

[Rosanne]

I had my seven minutes (twice) in the Chapel, Marco- and I was struck by the whole symmetry in relation to Tarot - along the lower walls as I was also struck by the images in Siena of the Allegory of Good and Bad Government. The Siena one is the only place I have seen all the images of Tarot in one place outside a deck. Oops, minus the Fool.

It is the use in a game that puzzles me. If someone could give me a rational reason why a Christian theme- as a primary theme would be used, my day would be made. If you look at all those early images of playing cards- like the wonderful German ones- they seem the most likely themes for playing cards. Hunting, Gods, exotic animals, plants, whips buttons etc etc. Huck has an answer in some other thread that made me laugh- "Why? I don't know why!" LOL
~Rosanne

 

[DoctorArcanus]

why a Christian theme for a XV century game?

I like this question, Rosanne

What makes it difficult to answer is that our mentality and culture are very different from XV century mentality and culture. What you wrote describes my feelings and yours:

Does it not seem odd to anyone that you have a game of the people, that shows a Christian allegory, when that would be so frowned upon? It does not seem like much fun for a start.

You and me would frown upon a game based on a Christian allegory. To you and to me, it does not seem like much fun. But we know very little about the feelings of a XV century Italian, until we look for documents and evidence. So, I don't know the answer to your question, but I think it can be found, looking with an open mind to XV century other documents and games. For instance, did we have other games with a Christian theme?

We can also take into account the "steps" comment made by Philebus.

And there is the comment by IHCOYC XPICTOC about the fact that the use of Christian images in a game could have been seen as a "provocation". Maybe this was enough to make the game fun for the players (and upset the author of the Sermones de Ludo).

As a different approach (much less scientific, but it could help to understand the problem) one can think of analogies in other times. Why should people during the cold war find amusing a game of global warfare (Risk, 1957)?

Maybe, even without the "provocation" feel, it was fun to play with the fundamental forces of the human universe: the social hierarchy, fortune, the virtues, the devil, God himself. Games often have the characteristic of simulating something "big" in real life (often, like chess or Risk, they simulate war). Simulating the whole cosmos at a certain time could have been seen as the most fun game in the world.

Marco

 

[Melanchollic]

As different approach (much less scientific, but it could help to understand the problem) one can think of analogies in other times. Why should people during the cold war find amusing a game of global warfare (Risk, 1957)?

Marco

Not to mention a game about buying property (Monopoly) or a game about performing surgery (Operation!) Weird!

 

[FrogStone]

I guess I don’t get why we must limit ideas of symbolism in the tarot to strictly ‘christian’ themes. Christianity itself did not develop isolated from culture. Everything -- whether it be religion, music, art, or philosophy -- is influenced by the culture that surrounds it. The Christian community emerged within the Roman Empire, and was effected by Roman religion, philosophy, ethics, and understanding. As Roman-Christianity became a conquering force in Europe (as well as into the east), it would be natural for it usurp the existing cultural practices, belief systems, and arts of the people, and co-opt them into a unified and orthodox expression of the nation-church. There is ample evidence that Christian Europe acquired technology, foods, stories and practices from other cultures – they were also diligent in stomping out any ideas or practices which contradicted their authority and or ability to control their occupied lands.
Just as the ‘pagan’ Romans did - it was common practice for the church to co-opt foreign and heathen practices/deities/symbols and redress them in Christian clothing. You call her ‘Aphrodite’ – her name is Venus. You call him Pan – He is the devil. It is fine and dandy to roll eggs on the fields on Easter morning – as long as you are dramatizing the stone rolling away from Jesus’ tomb, and not invoking the goddess Eoster to imbue the land with fertility.

 

[Melanchollic]

I don't think anyone has claimed that we "must limit ideas of symbolism in the tarot to strictly ‘Christian’ themes". Frankly I could care less if tarot trumps are Christian, Pagan, or Cannibalistic. And I reckon everyone here is aware that Roman Catholicism absorbed many pre-Christian ideas. Personally, I'm just as at home with Plato as Aquinas. I simply am interested in understanding the actual allegory presented by the card's designer, and IMO, looking strictly at the evidence, without bias, the tarot trumps clearly represent the popular themes, motifs and allegories found in the art, literature, and performance arts of the period. Whether you can call this popular cultural 'frame' Christian, in the purest sense of the word, is up to you. I find this whole idea of 'dressing' the cards up to look like typical late-medieval European allegories, while actually being Hindu goddesses and the like, to be ridiculous. No body would have known who it was. The subjects would have had to have been understandable to everybody, as the game was hugely popular, even with uneducated commoners.

 

[FrogStone]

I don't think anyone has claimed that we "must limit ideas of symbolism in the tarot to strictly ‘Christian’ themes". Frankly I could care less if tarot trumps are Christian, Pagan, or Cannibalistic. And I reckon everyone here is aware that Roman Catholicism absorbed many pre-Christian ideas. Personally, I'm just as at home with Plato as Aquinas. I simply am interested in understanding the actual allegory presented by the card's designer, and IMO, looking strictly at the evidence, without bias, the tarot trumps clearly represent the popular themes, motifs and allegories found in the art, literature, and performance arts of the period. Whether you can call this popular cultural 'frame' Christian, in the purest sense of the word, is up to you. I find this whole idea of 'dressing' the cards up to look like typical late-medieval European allegories, while actually being Hindu goddesses and the like, to be ridiculous. No body would have known who it was. The subjects would have had to have been understandable to everybody, as the game was hugely popular, even with uneducated commoners.

Very nicely put!
Though I would object to the idea that "No body would have known who it was." I doubt that people would have been unaware of their own cultural histories and folklore. Storytelling, romances,and curiosities from 'heathen' lands were popular. Any kind of significance people gave to the cards would be speculative. Everything in medieval europe was dressed up in church-state allegory - the 'language politic' of the time. Even the uneducated commoners would have been exposed to the devices of satire, metaphor, and pun.
We are talking about a game here - why would we take the playing pieces at face value? They are symbols. Just like the game of Monopoly uses symbols of wealth, capitalism, and greed - the little sports car and cruise ship are not just vehicles, they also are representations of status and luxury. It is probably a little easier to undress the pieces of a modern game to explore the values and ideas of the people who devised it.
I find it more interesting to explore the ideas and symbols in the playing pieces of tarot - sure they wear the clothing of the time period and church-state of medieval europe, but even the names of the cards are indicative of a more timeless "fundamental forces of the human universe: the social hierarchy, fortune, the virtues, the devil, God himself" (to borrow from marco's excellent phrasing). These ideas did not originate in, and are not exclusive to medieval europe. I don't think it is going out of context to explore the cards with reference to the cultures or history which contributed to their development. It could be complete irony that Le Monde bears a striking resemblance to the Dance of Shiva, maybe there is a pun of l’amande referring to the Phrygian Tree of Life. What fun it must have been to play the L'Amoreux card and muse as to whether the poor fellow was dealing with the platonic love for his mother and the erotic/romantic love for his beloved, or possibly the choice between a virtuous woman and the one of this desires, or maybe even Eve replacing Lillith as a more suitable mate for Adam.
I don't know that it is possible to see the actual allegory without bias.