Magician's Roses

[Teheuti]

So I am sitting here meditation on the Rider Magician. I have counted 17 roses. What does this mean?

In the BOTA version there are 10 roses. 5 above and 5 below because As Above, So Below. And it corresponds to the 5 senses. We need the 5 senses in order to concentrate to cultivate those roses. Okay. So this makes sense.

But what about Rider. 1 + 7 = 8. There is an infinity sign above his head, which is a horizontal number 8. There are 11 above and 6 below. In Rider's book he makes reference to "8 is the number of Christ." So through Christ Consciousness we can cultivate our desires?

Any ideas?

I wouldn't make too much of the exact number of roses on this card - except as it has personal significance to you and serves as a mnemonic of deeper meanings. As to Waite's exact meaning for roses, I believe he saw them as multi-valenced. There are dozens of references to roses and their meanings in his books, mostly relating to spiritual desire, beauty, and, especially for Waite, the divine spouse or desired one, whether soul/Psyche, Shekinah, Mary or Christ. So, a case can easily be made for Strength and for the Star. Here are a few quotes that I don't believe have been mentioned:

Waite, The Way of Divine Union: “So, virtue and beauty, the lily and the rose, really are, in essence, inseparable, dependent each upon the other, in a sense, BOTH married to G-d. The rose brings us to G-d, the immanent, the lily brings us to G-d, the transcendent. And when we do "GOOD WORKS", we bring G-d, the transcendent, INTO manifestation."

Waite, Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross: "Thus the Rose is a symbol of Mary because of her motherhood, but in relation to her it belongs to divine things, even as she herself stands on the threshold of Deity, being Spouse of the Divine Spirit and bearer of the Divine word made flesh. So also is the Rose of Shekinah, a Divine Rose, as she whom it typifies is Divine Mother of souls."

 

[Laurelle]

I wouldn't make too much of the exact number of roses on this card - except as it has personal significance to you and serves as a mnemonic of deeper meanings. As to Waite's exact meaning for roses, I believe he saw them as multi-valenced. There are dozens of references to roses and their meanings in his books, mostly relating to spiritual desire, beauty, and, especially for Waite, the divine spouse or desired one, whether soul/Psyche, Shekinah, Mary or Christ. So, a case can easily be made for Strength and for the Star. Here are a few quotes that I don't believe have been mentioned:

Waite, The Way of Divine Union: “So, virtue and beauty, the lily and the rose, really are, in essence, inseparable, dependent each upon the other, in a sense, BOTH married to G-d. The rose brings us to G-d, the immanent, the lily brings us to G-d, the transcendent. And when we do "GOOD WORKS", we bring G-d, the transcendent, INTO manifestation."

Waite, Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross: "Thus the Rose is a symbol of Mary because of her motherhood, but in relation to her it belongs to divine things, even as she herself stands on the threshold of Deity, being Spouse of the Divine Spirit and bearer of the Divine word made flesh. So also is the Rose of Shekinah, a Divine Rose, as she whom it typifies is Divine Mother of souls."

I'm glad you quoted some Waite. I was right there with you! A few days a go I picked up my Pictorial Guide to the Tarot by Waite. It's the book that comes with the deck.

He makes several references to the number 8 (1 +7=8), "Holy Spirit, the sign of life, like an endless cord, forming the figure 8 in a horizontal position." and ...."the number 8, it may be remembered that Christian Gnosticism speaks of rebirth in Christ as a change 'unto the Ogdoad. The mystic number is termed Jerusalem above, the Land of flowing with Milk and Honey, the Holy Spirit and the Land of the Lord. According to Martinism, 8 is the number of Christ."

So there you have it. I think the number 17 is a reference to 8. Waite was far to into the occult to have random insignificance in his cards (methinks). I really enjoy that Case came along and refined the deck.

 

[Abrac]

I agree the number eight has some significance; but he number of roses in the Waite-Smith doesn't seem as cut and dried as in Case. How are you getting 17?

 

[Teheuti]

I think the number 17 is a reference to 8. Waite was far to into the occult to have random insignificance in his cards (methinks). I really enjoy that Case came along and refined the deck.

I don't see 17 roses. I see 10 more-or-less full roses, several buds and and a small handful of rose fragments (hints of roses), peeping through the foliage. The buds and fragments are nearly indistinguishable from each other. And remember, that a sliver of width was cut off the side of each card when it went into full production - so some of the hints of flower may have been more full.

Waite's symbolism for the 8 is significant—he tells us it is.

 

[DavidMcCann]

This site has some useful, if brief, notes about Waite's images:
http://www.tarotpassages.com/old_moonstruck/oneill/index.htm
Apparently roses and lilies relate to Canticles, the Golden Dawn Zelator initiation, and alchemy.

 

[Laurelle]

I don't see 17 roses. I see 10 more-or-less full roses, several buds and and a small handful of rose fragments (hints of roses), peeping through the foliage. The buds and fragments are nearly indistinguishable from each other. And remember, that a sliver of width was cut off the side of each card when it went into full production - so some of the hints of flower may have been more full.

Waite's symbolism for the 8 is significant—he tells us it is.

I may have made a typo. There are 17 In total, including the lillies. At least the ones I colored.

 

[Abrac]

Here's some stuff on the rose I found in Waite's The Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross, 1924. I've added some comments that hopefully will make it easier to digest. It doesn't come right out and say what the roses in the Magician are supposed to symbolize but it does provide some food for thought. Waite's largely quoting Kabbalistic and Alchemical sources; he only gives a few opinions of his own, but some of this undoubtedly influenced him.

"If we turn now to the canonical Scriptures of Israel we find only two references, of which one is apart from symbolism. There is the familiar promise that "the desert shall blossom as the Rose" and there is the eloquent testimony of the Song of Solomon, which is translated in the Authorised Version: "I am the Rose of Sharon." We are carried thereby into the realm of Christian symbolism, and it may be noted in the first place that the Hebrew text אגי חבצלת שרון [I am the rose of Sharon] is rendered by the Vulgate Ego flos campi [I am the flower of the field, or plain], while it appears to be an open question in the mind of Catholic commentators whether the words are spoken by the Lover or Beloved of the poem: in the mystical sense, they have been applied therefore indifferently to Christ and the Blessed Virgin. The latter allocation is illogical under any circumstances, as however spiritually understood the personæ of the Song of Solomon are in the relation of Bridegroom and Bride."​

If the personæ of the poem correspond to Bridegroom and Bride, it would be illogical to say one of them is the Blessed Virgin. This assumes of course that the Bridegroom and Bride have consummated their marriage.

"It makes void also the arbitrary but far-prevailing interpretation of the poem as unfolding in earthly imagery the union between Christ and His Church."​

I'm not exactly sure what his reasoning is here but his opinion is clear enough.

"The fact remains, notwithstanding, that we have on the one hand the symbolical position given in the Grade of Rose-Croix [18th degree of Scottish Rite Freemasonry], that Christ is the Rose of Sharon and was foretold in the Song of Solomon under this mystical title, while on the other we have a broad general connection instituted between the Rose and Mary. The Rose of Jericho has been called St. Mary's Rose and tradition affirms that when Joseph and Mary were taking their flight into Egypt one of these flowers sprang up to mark every spot where they rested. In mediaeval times it was called Rosa Mariæ, while Marien Roselen is a German title of the Virgin. I need hardly mention the devotion of the Holy Rosary, instituted by St. Dominic—the prayers of which appear to have been symbolised as Roses—or its close analogue, the Rosaries of Chinese Buddhists. In its attribution to Mary, the Rose became a symbol of virginity.

Through the Christian centuries—from the fourth to the thirteenth—there grew up more or less secretly, under the ægis of the New Law, that Secret Tradition in Israel which is represented by the Sepher Ha Zohar, its connections and dependencies. This great work is rich with allusions scattered up and down the text to the Rose and its symbolism. Indeed, the first intimations on the subject occur in the opening words of the preliminary portion, where one of the mystical doctors initiates a certain conference with a quotation from the Song of Solomon: "As the Rose among thorns, so is my beloved among the daughters." We learn in this place (1) that the Rose signifies the Community of Israel; [Waite elsewhere refers to the hidden Church and the mystic "elect" as Israel] (2) that its colour, which is red or white, has reference to the severity and mercy which alternate in the life of Israel; (3) that its five petals allude to the five ways of salvation and five gates of grace; (4) that it symbolises also, the cup of benedictions [blessings] and even the chalice of salvation. We are told elsewhere that Adam, while still unfallen, tended the Roses of Paradise. The Rose, however, is more especially a symbol of Shekinah, whose rule extends on the right and left side of the Tree of Life in Kabalism, and obtains [occurs] also in the middle, because of her office in Malkuth, considered as the kingdom of this world. On the severity side of the Tree Hod is in correspondence with the Red Rose, while Netzach on the mercy side has the White Rose for its emblem. The union of red and white produces the Rose of Malkuth, and the plural-form "Roses" has reference to the Shekinah above—in the transcendence—and in manifestation, or in the world below. The Rose has also an important place as a symbol of sex spiritualised, for the name is applied to Shekinah in her desire after union with the King.

Shekinah comes before us in the Zohar somewhat strangely confused amidst male and female aspects. I cannot remember that she is ever saluted by the title of Rose of Sharon, which indeed is applied once to Rabbi Simeon, the head and fount of theosophical tradition in Jewry. The case of Shekinah seems therefore analogous to that other confusion which I have mentioned, namely, that the Rose of Sharon or flos campi is referred in Christian symbolism indifferently to Mary the Mother and her Divine Son. But St. Mary, as the great patron and type-in-chief of virginity, appears as the poles asunder [worlds apart] from the Most Holy Shekinah, who has a high office in nuptials and does not extend her protection to man except through the bond of wedlock. Yet is there the shadow of a link between them, for she who above all in Christendom is Virgo singularis et inter omnes mitis [exceptional Virgin and mildest of the mild] is mother as well as virgin, and Shekinah presides over motherhood. The idea of these two symbolical personalities, both full of grace and beauty, both uplifted beyond all heights of sanctity, yet—amidst their assumption [ascension] and transcendence—both so near to earth, grew up in complete independence, each unknown to each. A Litany of Shekinah might, I think, be constructed out of the Zohar and would not be less decorative or less pregnant with meaning than the Litany of Loretto, though—as I have had occasion to point out elsewhere—she who was Matrona [Shekinah] in the heights and Matrona also in manifestation was no object of ceremonial devotion, like Mary the Mother, among any sect in Jewry. Beside both emblems there persisted also the remanents of pre-Christian myth and legend. The Rose of Mary was more especially the White Rose, and it is said that the Red Rose continued for long to be related with Holda, the Northern goddess. There is also the beautiful fable of Lauvin and his Rose-Garden, which takes us into the Land of Faerie, where the Rose was under special protection. In another category of symbolism the Rose is womanhood, and as such it is an erotic emblem. The presence of this intimation is, I think, to be found everywhere and has not been put away altogether but rather transformed and sanctified when the gracious type has been lifted into the spiritual world. Thus the Rose is a symbol of Mary because of her motherhood, but in relation to her it belongs to divine things, even as she herself stands on the threshold of Deity, being Spouse of the Divine Spirit and bearer of the Divine Word made flesh. So also is the Rose of Shekinah a Divine Rose, as she whom it typifies is Divine Mother of souls."​

The next several pages didn't seem directly relevant to the subject at hand so I skipped to his conclusion where he quotes Michael Maier:

"Having thus described at some length a pre-Rosicrucian symbol, I will cite in conclusion of my study on the Rose in Symbolism the following intimations of Michael Maier, when he is not testifying as if an expert Brother of the Rosy Cross but as an alchemist only. He says: (1) That the Rose is the first, most beautiful and perfect of all flowers. (2) That it is guarded because it is a virgin, and the guard is thorns. (3) That the Gardens of Philosophy are planted with many roses, both red and white. (4) That these colours are in correspondence with gold and silver. (5) That the centre of the Rose is green and is emblematical of the Green Lion, a familiar emblem to the Wise. (6) That even as the natural Rose is a pleasure to the senses and life of man, on account of its sweetness and salubrity [wholesomeness], so is the Philosophical Rose exhilarating to the heart and a giver of strength to the brain. (7) That as the natural Rose turns to the sun and is refreshed by rain, so is the Philosophical Matter prepared in blood, grown in light, and in and by these made perfect. Hereof is the Rose in alchemy."​

 

[Abrac]

There's little doubt that the roses and lilies correspond to the "Rose of Sharon and Lily of the Valley" from Song of Solomon, especially since Waite specifically makes reference to this in the PKT (flos campi and lilium convallium); but with Waite things are never as they seem so one has to look a little closer to try and understand what he means by this. Here are a few references; I realize they will probably raise as many questions as they answer but I offer them for whatever they might be worth.

One thing of special interest is a picture found in Waite's The Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross. The image is from the 18th century Rosicrucian document Geheime Figuren der Rosenkreuzer. I uploaded a color version I found here.

The Hermetic Philosophy

There are many things of interest in this image, but the thing that stands out to me is the association of the rose with the sun and the lily with the moon. This gives an indication that together they represent male and female. I found a reference to this document in Waite's 1887 book The Real History of the Rosicrucians, so he was familiar with it then, and theoretically it could have influenced to some extent the roses and lilies in the Magician image. Something else I noticed is the sunflower just above the rose and lily.

This is Waite's explanation of the image:

"The motto is Deus vendit sua dona pro labore [God provides his gifts for the labor]. The Magnet Stone testifies concerning itself, being that in the absence of which the seeker can effect nothing—meaning of things which belong to reality. It is godly love, which draws upon the way of truth those who seek God and wisdom. The Stone is symbolised as the dew of heaven and the fatness of earth, a fiery water and an aqueous fire. It is not only near all things, but is even immanent in all and is yet unknown. The counsel is therefore to fear God, to pray and work in patience. It follows from these intimations that the Stone is understood mystically; but as in the allegories of Khunrath, its attainment leads in some undemonstrable manner to the gift of the Physical Stone, and the symbolism of the one is confused with that of the other, the Spiritual Magnet being denominated also Hermaphrodite, Phœnix, Pelican, a Stone which is not a Stone, Water and no Water. This terminology is familiar in material alchemy. My purpose in reproducing the diagram is to shew that the mind of the Rosy Cross at the end of the eighteenth century was the mind of Khunrath two hundred years previously. Between the two periods there is evidence that other alchemists leaned in the same direction. It must be said that the symbolical design is not rendered fully intelligible by the mass of letterpress which accompanies it. The dew and breath of heaven descend upon a flower which represents the First Matter; the Solar rays are poured upon a Rose and those of the Moon upon a Lily; they meet at the apex of the inverted triangle and issue therefrom as the Sap of Sun and Moon, producing the three Philosophical Principles which generate the elements, metals, minerals and planets. The Rose is the Rose of Sharon, the Lily is that of Jehosaphat and the triangle is the Fount of Wonders."​

In Azoth, or, The Star in the East, concerning what Waite calls "the realization of Christ on earth" and "the communication of Nirvana in Christ," he says:

"On that day there will be a marriage of the Bridegroom and the Bride among the lilies and pomegranates of the Paradise of God."​

A couple of other quotes from Azoth:

"We must absolutely touch nothing, think nothing, do nothing, which does not make for God, and this certainly is a task so hard that there is nothing in the Herculean labours to compare with it. It will, in many cases, mean the uprooting of the associations of a life and of the tendencies inherited from generations. There is, however, no possible escape, and we must cast round us as best we can for sources of encouragement and consolation. Let us, therefore, remember that the way of the Mystic is ultimately of roses and lilies."​

"The true, ideal, inviolable Virgin is revealed in us, she has descended towards us, or we have risen to her, she is identified with us, she dwells with us, and out from the illumination of her glory, and down from the transcension of her height, there comes the desired illumination, with the glory of dream and legend. It permeates, it illustrates, it informs, it possesses all our being. It has "slept in death through the wintry hours" and the long night of matter, but it "breaks forth in glory"; we may crown ourselves with roses and lilies from the Paradise of the life to come; for the life is no longer to come; we have achieved in beauty and we shall reign in joy."​

The following are from some of Waite's Fellowship of the Rosy Cross rituals:

"Master of the Temple: (Holding his Wand upraised in the left hand): Adonai Ha Aretz [Lord of the Earth], Adonai Malkah [Lord and Queen] (Making upon his person the Kabalistic Sign of the Cross), unto Thee be the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, Malkuth, Geburah and Gedulah [Chesed], the Valley of Vision, the Seat of Judgment and the Palace of Magnificence. Unto Thee be the Rose of Sharon, the Lily of the Valley, the Indwelling Glory and Fountain of all Influx, wherewith the Garden is watered for ever and ever."​

"The Priestess of the Rite: The Rose art Thou, and we are the Rose in Thee: we are also a chaplet of roses about Thy morning star. The flower of the field is mine and this is the Holy Rose: I have bound Thy lilies on my heart. My rose expands in Thy light. The dew of Thy Presence falls therein, and it breathes forth fragrance of the Spirit. O Rosa Florescens [O Flowering Rose, a reference to Jhesus Nobis Omnia – Rosa Florescens, 1617]."​

"Priestess of the Rite: Rose of Jericho, spiritual rose, rose of Heaven above, redeeming rose below. Florebit Regnum Dei Intus Quasi Rosa et Lilium [The Kingdom of God blooms within as the Rose and Lily]. The lilies bloom in the valley, even the Valley of Jehoshaphat."​

"The Priestess: The Waters of Life are Love. Whosoever wills, let him drink of the Waters of Life freely. I testify that the Rose of Sharon is also that of Shekinah, for the Spirit and the Bride are One, and this is the Life of the Rose."​

I've noticed a few common threads that seem to be running though these, and also through those of my previous post. I'll keep them to myself and let the reader decide for him or herself what it all means.

 

[Laurelle]

I may have made a typo. There are 17 In total, including the lillies. At least the ones I colored.

okay....I was taking a break from the meditation side of tarot for a few days. I just pulled my RWS magician. I am sorry for the confusion, when I replied back I was on my phone.

Now I have the card in front of me and I do count 17 roses. I basically counted all the red in the foliage whether it is a small bud or a bloom.

The subconscious and mental imagery is important to everyone of us. So even though I have counted 17, others are not seeing it. I suppose this means something different to us all. Neither is right or wrong. It just is. And helps us individually on our path towards subconscious understanding.

 

[Abrac]

Hi, thanks for the response. I think it might depend too on what version you have. I was looking at some of the different versions and clones and they vary quite a bit.