Major Tom
I can't help being attracted to the title in English being: The House of God.
Is it the source? Beats me.
Is it the source? Beats me.
Major Arcana titles: La Maison-Diev
kwaw
Major Tom said:
'The House of God' seems the most appropriate translation to me. As firemaiden points out earlier in the thread Old French possessed an oblique-genitive case: the possessor (Dieu) may follow the possessed (Maison) without an intervening preposition (de) in the oblique case. That is 'maison dieu' means 'house of god' or 'god's house' in Old French (maison de dieu in modern french).
quote:
47.1. Genitive use of the oblique case. The possessor follows the
object or person possessed without an intervening preposition:
le lit son seignor (12:412)
her husband's bed
La mort le roi Artu (Aspland, 14)
The death of King Arthur
This construction is used exclusively when the possessor is a singular
person referred to by proper name or by title indicating family status
(e g , father, mother, son) or social position (e g , king, count, knight).
Note that in genitive constructions m which the possessor is Dieu 'God,'
cui (see 11 44 2), autrui 'other, another/ or nului 'no other, no one,' or in
certain archaic or fixed expressions, the possessor may precede:
U Deu enemi (16 1)
God's enemies
L'autrui joie prise petit (10, 178)
The joy of another he scarcely esteems
end quote from
http://llc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/10/1/33.pdf
Aspects of Old French persisted throughout the transition of Middle French into at least the 17th century, and longer as Firemaiden notes in such things as places names and expressions.
The form was prevalent in Anglo-Norman French, as is attested by its use in England. The earliest mention of 'maisun Dieu' as meaning 'temple, tabernacle' is in the Oxford Psalter, c. 1150 (Fr. Michel, Libri Psalmorum versio antiqua gallica, Oxford, 1860. p69). There are several Maison Dieu in England in the 12th century, for example, the 'God's House' founded at Southampton c.1197. The name originates during the Old French period, then persists, despite the changes in grammar.
In England a Maison-dieu (alternative terms include a Maise, Meis, Mies, Maysondieu or meson dieu) was generally a hospital, pilgrim's rest, poor-house or almshourse, often endowed by a benefactor for this use with the stipulation for prayers to be made for the souls of the benefactor and / or others; we may view it then as a place dedicated therefore not only to the purgation of the sick in body but of the soul in purgatory.
The Maison Deiu at Newcastle though taken into private hands during the riegn of King Henry VIII is still referenced in the Speed Plan of 1620 and in his chorography of 1649:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43334
Some other Maison Dieu in England:
http://www.faversham.org/pages/standard.aspx?i_PageID=15845
http://www.dover-kent.co.uk/places/maison_dieu.htm
http://www.doverpages.co.uk/la_maison_dieu.htm
http://communities.northumberland.gov.uk/006769FS.htm
http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk...D=PL_207&PropName=Maison Dieu Chapel, Brechin
Kwaw
kwaw
kwaw said:
The British History site has numerous other references to British Maison Dieu worth exploring:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search.aspx?query=maison dieu
frelkins
I cannot believe I am the only one here who has ever lived in Paris -- surely jmd is aware of the Rue de la Maison-Dieu between Asselines and Raymond Losserand? I think the nearest Metro may be Gaite or Pernety? Very close to the Montparnasse Cemetery.
It is so called, as the plaque on a corner building notes, because in the 11th century a way-house with a chapel was erected, that at various times became a hospital, a "leper colony," a prison, a place for unwed mothers. . .
Indeed historic buildings that used to be function as hospitals or maison dieu are all over France, for example, from the site French Patrimony, one can find entries like this:
http://www.patrimoine-de-france.org/oeuvres/richesses-15-5274-41061-M62353-96473.html
which describes a 1295 building in Dijon originally constructed as a chapel with hospital, and now obviously a historic site but for some reason not a protected one!
I cannot say anything about card images of course, but what a maison dieu was is established without a doubt surely? Do I not understand this conversation?
It is so called, as the plaque on a corner building notes, because in the 11th century a way-house with a chapel was erected, that at various times became a hospital, a "leper colony," a prison, a place for unwed mothers. . .
Indeed historic buildings that used to be function as hospitals or maison dieu are all over France, for example, from the site French Patrimony, one can find entries like this:
http://www.patrimoine-de-france.org/oeuvres/richesses-15-5274-41061-M62353-96473.html
which describes a 1295 building in Dijon originally constructed as a chapel with hospital, and now obviously a historic site but for some reason not a protected one!
I cannot say anything about card images of course, but what a maison dieu was is established without a doubt surely? Do I not understand this conversation?
kwaw
kwaw said:
For Example:
"Maison De Dieu was founded by royal license, June 10, 1412, by the munificent Roger de Thornton, for a warden, being a priest; nine poor men, brethren; and four poor women, sisters; who were to be provided with meat and clothing in this "House of God," where they should pray daily for the health of the mayor, sheriff, aldermen, and commonalty of Newcastle, and, after their respective deaths, for their souls, and the souls of the father and mother of the founder, and of all the benefactors of the hospital...
..."The Hospitalle of Saynt Katheryne, called le Maison-Dieu, in the parishe of All-Saynts, in the towne of Newcastell upon Tyne, was founded by reporte to fynde a prieste for ever to be ther dayly resident in kepyng of hospitalitie to the reliefe of the poore, and to herborowe the sickke, and to gyve in almes yerely certeyn cooles to poore folks, to the value of 26s. 8d. and bredde to the valewe of 13s. 4d. and to kepe two yerely obytts for the founders sowles...
"By his charter, dated at Hull on 1 March 1394, Michael de la Pole founded, adjoining the Charterhouse on the east, a hospital, with 1½ acres of land there, for thirteen poor men and thirteen poor women, feeble and old, which hospital was to be known for ever as ' God's House of Hull... They were to pray for King Richard and the founder and other persons named..."
"The Maison Dieu was founded in the 15th century by Richard Moore, draper, of Northallerton, who gave certain lands and tenements in Northallerton and elsewhere to endow a chantry in the church and maintain a Maison Dieu in that town, in which thirteen poor persons of either sex were to reside. They were to have 20s. a year to buy coal with, and were to find two beds in the Maison Dieu for poor travellers, who were to lodge there one night and no longer. The thirteen inmates were daily, morning and evening, at 6 o'clock (ad horam sextam) to say fifteen Paternosters and as many Ave Marias, with three creeds, in honour of the passion of our Lord. They were also to pray for the souls of the founders and others...
"John Doreward, the son, had licence on 14 May, 1440, to found a house or mansion, to be called the Maison Dieu of the town of Bocking, on two acres of his own land within the town, for seven poor men to dwell in... that they might pray for the good estate of the king and the founder, and for their souls after death and the souls of the king's mother Katharine and John Doreward the father...
These and more examples are available from:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search.aspx?query=maison dieu
eugim
Hello Kwaw:
I think could be of interest (or not) this point of view I posted on another thread.
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=1473466#post1473466
Eugim
I think could be of interest (or not) this point of view I posted on another thread.
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=1473466#post1473466
Eugim
kwaw
mesondieux
Piers Plowman:
7.018: Marchaunts in the margyne hadde manye yeres,
7.019: Ac noon A pena et a culpa the Pope nolde hem graunte.
7.020: For thei holde noght hir halidayes as Holy Chirche techeth,
7.021: And for thei swere 'by hir soule' and-so God moste hem helpe'
7.022: Ayein clene Conseience, hir catel to selle.
7.023: Ac under his secret seel Truthe sente hem a lettre,
7.024: [And bad hem] buggen boldely what hem best liked
7.025: And sithenes selle it ayein and save the wynnyng,
7.026: And amende mesondieux thermyd and myseise folk helpe;
7.027: And wikkede weyes wightly amende,
7.028: And do boote to brugges that tobroke were;
7.029: Marien maydenes or maken hem nonnes;
7.030: Povere peple and prisons fynden hem hir foode,
7.031: And sette soolers to scole or to som othere craftes;
7.032: Releve Religion and renten hem bettre.
7.033: "And I shal sende yow myselve Seynt Michel myn angel,
7.034: That no devel shal yow dere ne [in youre deying fere yow],
7.035: And witen yow fro wanhope, if ye wol thus werche,
7.036: And sende youre soules in saufte to my Seintes in joye.'
7.037: Thanne were marchaunts murie -- manye wepten for joye-
7.038: And preiseden Piers the Plowman, that purchaced this bulle.
Piers Plowman:
7.018: Marchaunts in the margyne hadde manye yeres,
7.019: Ac noon A pena et a culpa the Pope nolde hem graunte.
7.020: For thei holde noght hir halidayes as Holy Chirche techeth,
7.021: And for thei swere 'by hir soule' and-so God moste hem helpe'
7.022: Ayein clene Conseience, hir catel to selle.
7.023: Ac under his secret seel Truthe sente hem a lettre,
7.024: [And bad hem] buggen boldely what hem best liked
7.025: And sithenes selle it ayein and save the wynnyng,
7.026: And amende mesondieux thermyd and myseise folk helpe;
7.027: And wikkede weyes wightly amende,
7.028: And do boote to brugges that tobroke were;
7.029: Marien maydenes or maken hem nonnes;
7.030: Povere peple and prisons fynden hem hir foode,
7.031: And sette soolers to scole or to som othere craftes;
7.032: Releve Religion and renten hem bettre.
7.033: "And I shal sende yow myselve Seynt Michel myn angel,
7.034: That no devel shal yow dere ne [in youre deying fere yow],
7.035: And witen yow fro wanhope, if ye wol thus werche,
7.036: And sende youre soules in saufte to my Seintes in joye.'
7.037: Thanne were marchaunts murie -- manye wepten for joye-
7.038: And preiseden Piers the Plowman, that purchaced this bulle.
kwaw
Salvation for Sale?
_ translated into Modern English:
Merchants to the good · had many years,
But none a poena et a culpa · would the pope them grant,
For they hold not her holy days · as Holy Church teacheth,
And they swear `by their souls' · and `so God must them help'
Clean against conscience · merchandise to sell.
But under his secret seal · Truth sent them a letter
That they should buy boldly · what they liked best,
And afterwards sell again · and save their profits
Therewith to amend maisons Dieu · and miserable folk help;
To repair rotten roads · where plainly required;
And to build up bridges · that were broken down;
Help maidens to marry · or make of them nuns;
Poor people and prisoners · to find them their food;
And set scholars to school · or to some other craft;
Relieve poor religious · and lower their rents --
'And I shall send you myself · Michael mine archangel,
That no devil shall you daunt · nor fright you at death,
And keep you from despair · if ye will thus work,
And send your souls safely · to my saints in joy.'
Then were merchants merry · many wept for joy,
And praised Piers the Plowman · that provided this bull...
...And how the priest proved · no pardon like Do-well,
And deemed that good deeds · an indulgence surpassed,
And biennials and triennials · and letters of bishops.
And how Do-well at Doomsday · is honourable held,
Surpassing the pardon · of Saint Peter's church.
Now hath the pope power · to grant the people
Remission of penance · to pass into Heaven:
This is our belief · as lettered men teach us:
Quodeumque ligaveris super terram, erit ligature et in coelis, etc.
So I believe loyally · (the Lord forbid else!)
That pardon, penance, and prayers · cause to be saved
Souls that have sinned · seven times deadly.
But to trust to indulgences · truly methinketh,
Is not so safe for the soul · as it is to do well.
Therefore I advise all you · the rich on this earth
That on trust of your treasure · trentals can have,
Be ye never the bolder · to break the ten laws
And especially ye, masters · mayors, and judges,
Who for wise men are held · and have this world's wealth
To purchase your pardons · and the pope's bulls.
At the dreadful Doom · when the dead shall arise
And come all before Christ · their account to yield,
How thou leddest thy life · and here his laws kept,
And how thou didst day by day · the doom will declare:
Then a poke full of pardons · as provincials' letters,
Though found in the fraternity · of all the friars' orders
With doublefold indulgence · unless good deeds help you,
I put your patents and pardons · at one pea-pod's value!
Kwaw
Modern English translation of Piers Plowman:
William Langland; The Book Concerning Piers Plowman tr. Donald and Rachel Attwater.
http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/special/authors/langland/pp-pass7.html
kwaw said:
_ translated into Modern English:
Merchants to the good · had many years,
But none a poena et a culpa · would the pope them grant,
For they hold not her holy days · as Holy Church teacheth,
And they swear `by their souls' · and `so God must them help'
Clean against conscience · merchandise to sell.
But under his secret seal · Truth sent them a letter
That they should buy boldly · what they liked best,
And afterwards sell again · and save their profits
Therewith to amend maisons Dieu · and miserable folk help;
To repair rotten roads · where plainly required;
And to build up bridges · that were broken down;
Help maidens to marry · or make of them nuns;
Poor people and prisoners · to find them their food;
And set scholars to school · or to some other craft;
Relieve poor religious · and lower their rents --
'And I shall send you myself · Michael mine archangel,
That no devil shall you daunt · nor fright you at death,
And keep you from despair · if ye will thus work,
And send your souls safely · to my saints in joy.'
Then were merchants merry · many wept for joy,
And praised Piers the Plowman · that provided this bull...
...And how the priest proved · no pardon like Do-well,
And deemed that good deeds · an indulgence surpassed,
And biennials and triennials · and letters of bishops.
And how Do-well at Doomsday · is honourable held,
Surpassing the pardon · of Saint Peter's church.
Now hath the pope power · to grant the people
Remission of penance · to pass into Heaven:
This is our belief · as lettered men teach us:
Quodeumque ligaveris super terram, erit ligature et in coelis, etc.
So I believe loyally · (the Lord forbid else!)
That pardon, penance, and prayers · cause to be saved
Souls that have sinned · seven times deadly.
But to trust to indulgences · truly methinketh,
Is not so safe for the soul · as it is to do well.
Therefore I advise all you · the rich on this earth
That on trust of your treasure · trentals can have,
Be ye never the bolder · to break the ten laws
And especially ye, masters · mayors, and judges,
Who for wise men are held · and have this world's wealth
To purchase your pardons · and the pope's bulls.
At the dreadful Doom · when the dead shall arise
And come all before Christ · their account to yield,
How thou leddest thy life · and here his laws kept,
And how thou didst day by day · the doom will declare:
Then a poke full of pardons · as provincials' letters,
Though found in the fraternity · of all the friars' orders
With doublefold indulgence · unless good deeds help you,
I put your patents and pardons · at one pea-pod's value!
Kwaw
Modern English translation of Piers Plowman:
William Langland; The Book Concerning Piers Plowman tr. Donald and Rachel Attwater.
http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/special/authors/langland/pp-pass7.html
kwaw
eugim said:
"Feed the poor, repair roads and hospitals," Piers Plowman tells the Merchants, "and you need not fear demons at your death."
And as we see from the examples in the posts above in their wills they leave money for the foundation and maintenance of the mesondieux whose inmates shall pray for their souls...
So yes perhaps we have a type of alchemy, the conversion of gold into salvation...
But our mesondieux has been struck by lightening, the hand of god and two figures fall in a shower...
... of coins thrown from heaven?
Perhaps post-reformation statement of those for whom the house of God had been relocated from a Temple full of Merchants to the Book of Scripture?
frelkins
Why this insistence on the Reformation? France remained a rigidly old-fashioned Catholic country until the Revolution, and after the restoration of the monarchy, reverted back to a strong Catholic foundation.
At one time the Church in France formed its own separate government, certainly wealthier and more powerful than the King. (see Richelieu, for example).
The Reformation had little lasting power in France and of course even less in Italy. Please enlighten me. I hesitate to speculate but I would think the lightning strike is what happens to the rich merchants and their money in the fortress counting house if they *don't* endow the maison dieu.
At one time the Church in France formed its own separate government, certainly wealthier and more powerful than the King. (see Richelieu, for example).
The Reformation had little lasting power in France and of course even less in Italy.
Please enlighten me. I hesitate to speculate but I would think the lightning strike is what happens to the rich merchants and their money in the fortress counting house if they *don't* endow the maison dieu. 