Marseilles decks for study purposes

[Diana]

To answer your question, I reckon it's something else. How else would you reach an Anglo audience?

Seems to me, every little bit helps.

Major Tom: Is it really helpful when the person who has bought a Tarot of Marseilles deck, with an accompanying book to discover it, opens on page 36 to the Title "11 - Justice", and on page 30: "8 Strength". That's more confusing than helpful.

Page 18: "The High Priestess" (This is in large bold letters and in smaller letters it is written "or Papess".)

Page 20. The Empress represents the fertile Mother Goddess.... (huh???? )

And they open on page 126, because they're eager to find out what a Roi de Deniers is, to see that he is "The King of Pentacles". On the same page, we have a Page/Princess of Wands. (Wands??? Pentacles????)

Eight of Swords: bondage

Reversed Four of Pentacles: "Money, money, money."

Page 16: "1 The Magician". (Not a mention of a Bateleur ANYWHERE. A Bateleur is not a magician - any French-English dictionary will tell you that.)

Need I say that The Fool has been assigned the number zero?

 

[spoonbender]

Man, that book sounds ridiculous!!! It doesn't look like the people who wrote it know anything about a Tarot de Marseille.

 

[Rusty Neon]

Man, that book sounds ridiculous!!! It doesn't look like the people who wrote it know anything about a Tarot de Marseille.

As noted here and on other threads, that book is about the RWS. It has RWS card illustrations. Actually, as far as popular RWS books go, it isn't that bad.

 

[Kissa]

I understand Diana's questioning about the logic in the process of bringing together two (and I would dare say three) very uncompatible items... A very nice reproduction of a legendary historical deck, a book that tastes like a hair in the soup re:the deck and a spreadcloth all purple and New-Agey, Aquarius era, Wiccan spellwork orientated...???

My guess is "beginner's set" that is supposed to appeal to the greatest audience possible. Look at us, from collectors to curious, I can even imagine ppl buying the set for the spreadcloth.

My two cents...

Kissa

 

[Major Tom]

My guess is "beginner's set" that is supposed to appeal to the greatest audience possible. Look at us, from collectors to curious, I can even imagine ppl buying the set for the spreadcloth.

Precisely the 'something else' I had in mind. Economy in volume. It is inexpensive, they have to sell a lot of them to make any money.

And everyone who does buy it will find something of value in it.

When stopped in the street and asked for directions, have you ever been tempted to send someone the long way around because it's easier to describe or even the wrong way altogether?

 

[Sophie]

and from what it's worth, i use this cheap reproduction more than the very glorious camoin-jodorowsky which i can't stand, despite the stock quality, the fuss about it, the "wisdom of the Ancient" restored blablabla and Mister Camoin's cult of the personality...

I bought the Camoin-Jodorowski in a local bookshop, before I even heard about M. Camoin. Jodo I knew from some of his other work (films , books, comic strips - anyone seen his strips with Moebius?) - and had recently bought his book La Voie du Tarot. Later I saw the Camoin website, and I see what you mean, Kissa, but the "Magical Mystery Tour to which Camoin has the Key" aspect of it won't change my mind. I work with Jodo's book, which is mystical and practical at the same time, and doesn't self-promote its author. Jodo doesn't need that kind of thing- his protean oeuvre speaks for him.

I like the good card stock, I like the precision of detail and clear colours, it's useful to learn with. I have some questions about some of the changes they made - though these are being answered slowly (the tower door). However, when I want to dream and look at the past a bit more, and also to learn to do readings with different cards, I take out the other TdM I own - the Héron Conver reproduction from the BN. Now I also plan to buy a couple more in the New Year, because I like variety and the richness that comes from learning varying detail and interpretation. Dodal is a must - the scans I see are so alluring, so M. Flornoy will acquire a new client. BTW, if you contrast the websites of Flornoy and Bocher, on the one hand, and Camoin on the other, then you quickly see the difference in temperament and approach! I just remember that Jodo was in on the project, and together they did a good job.

I think, if you can push past the fuss and the self-pub. (which I find excusable, if irritating, given the huge competion from Anglo-Saxon decks and interpretations), the Camoin-Jodo is well worth it, unless it is the card you don't like (the colours? the line?). Jodo's book is great and anyone who speaks any kind of French would find some treasures in there.

I'm wondering (Rusty? jmd?) - Jodo writes in Spanish and is translated into French- do you know if La Voie du Tarot has come out in Spanish, for those forumites who read Spanish but not French?)

 

[jmd]

In answer to your question about whether Jodorowsky's book is published in Spanish, I honestly have no idea - perhaps the question asked in the Book section would be useful.

In replying to Moonbow*'s opening post, I would, without any hesitation, next recommend... actually HIGHLY recommend the two reproductions by J-C Flornoy (at letarot.com): the Noblet and the Dodal.

 

[Rusty Neon]

I'm wondering (Rusty? jmd?) - Jodo writes in Spanish and is translated into French- do you know if La Voie du Tarot has come out in Spanish, for those forumites who read Spanish but not French?)

A 616-page tarot book by Alejandro Jodorowsky and Marianne Costa titled La Via del Tarot came out in November 2004. I have no idea whether the content is the same as the French book's. It probably is, but I don't guarantee it . The Spanish title would appear to be a direct translation of the French book's title.

Costa was Jodorowsky's co-author for La Voie du Tarot.

http://www.randomhousemondadori.com.mx/librodelmes.htm

 

[tmgrl2]

In answer to your question about whether Jodorowsky's book is published in Spanish, I honestly have no idea - perhaps the question asked in the Book section would be useful.

In replying to Moonbow*'s opening post, I would, without any hesitation, next recommend... actually HIGHLY recommend the two reproductions by J-C Flornoy (at letarot.com): the Noblet and the Dodal.

Ditto to this, jmd.

They are marvelous!!

Also, I liked Diana's post about looking for various aspects in a book and seeing if they are, in fact, Marseille tradition references.

I also go right to the Three of Swords and to the Ten of Swords.

I loved Silvie Simon's book The Tarot as far as the majors, since she uses mostly Grimaud cards and has a broad spectrum in interpretation. I bought the book used from Amazon Marketplace for $3.00+.

However, when I got to the pips, although she portrays "Marseille-style" pips, it seems as if she mostly opted for later tradition intepretations a la "keywords."

For example, in the section on Minor Arcana, she does an intro to the numbers before each suit of same number, but then when she gives meaning to individual cards, she jumps immediately to:

e.g. Three of Swords.

With the 3 of Swords we enter a world of dolorous and painful thoughts. On the emotional plane if forebodes troubles with children, family quarrels, exhaustion and sexual frustration....ill health, physical harm....best to remain vigilant....It is a card of trial, adversity, and sorrow.
One feels misunderstood and unloved.

So, after loving her treatment of the Majors, I get to the Minors, like the discussion of numbers, but then when I got to individual cards, I said:

"Where did she get this?"

When one looks at a Marseille Trois d'Espees, these are not the meanings that come forward, not that these interpretations are not possible but they are not broad and universal in offering as the Trois d'Espees can be and is.

Just my two cents...re interpretations and "Marseille" tradition....

terri

 

[Rusty Neon]

I loved Silvie Simon's book The Tarot as far as the majors, since she uses mostly Grimaud cards and has a broad spectrum in interpretation. I bought the book used from Amazon Marketplace for $3.00+.

However, when I got to the pips, although she portrays "Marseille-style" pips, it seems as if she mostly opted for later tradition intepretations a la "keywords."

For example, in the section on Minor Arcana, she does an intro to the numbers before each suit of same number, but then when she gives meaning to individual cards, she jumps immediately to:

e.g. Three of Swords.

[tmgirl2 quoted a passage]

So, after loving her treatment of the Majors, I get to the Minors, like the discussion of numbers, but then when I got to individual cards, I said:

"Where did she get this?"

In answer to your question as to where Sylvie Simon got this for the TdM 3 of Swords ... I'll take a quick stab, as I'm short on time and the passages below or similar passages are probably in your book as well.

The only book of Sylvie Simon's that I have is "Connaître & pratiquer les tarots".

Some extracts, obviously not the full texts ....

On Swords, at p. 124:

"[Swords] are a symbol of power, of bravery, of victory but also war and struggle. The sword has a double function: it brings justice but also destruction. .... In the major arcana, Justice has a sword. In general, the sword announces struggle, difficulty, obstacles."

Thus, Simon is influenced by traditional (pre-GD) cartomancy meanings for the Swords suit.

On the Three, at p. 167:

"The 3 is a creative and active number that symbolizes dynamism, manifestation on the earthly plane."

On the 3 of Swords, at p. 167-8, there are meanings consistent with traditional cartomancy meanings:

At p. 168, something numerological:

"The 3 of Swords is the only one among among the 3s that has not yet passed duality, hence [there is] rivalry."

Thus, she ties in her general meaning for Swords (struggle, difficulty, obstacles) with her general meaning for 3s.

Also at p. 168, here's something for the witch-hunters looking for RWS influences (but remember that Sorrow is also a traditional (pre-GD) cartomancy meaning and there is a pierced heart in the Sola-Busca 3 of Swords and the TdM 3 of Swords can, if you meditate, be seen this way among other ways:

"The sword of the 3 reminds us of the heart pierced by the sword of the Virgin Mary in Catholic symbolism."

http://www.ixeh.net/faith/Seven-S/ss-01.html : The prophecy of Simeon. Luke 2. "When Mary and Joseph present the enfant Jesus in the temple, Simeon predicts that a "sword" (of sorrow) will pierce her soul."