Newbie to Thoth needs advice

[ravenest]

If it had not been a religion, what else could it be? What else does it serve its purpose?

To postulate 'if it had not been' , postulates 'it had been' in the first place . What else it 'could' be is what it was . I define that 'was' (and a 'still is' ) , for me, as a 'magical philosophy' . It isnt my religion though.

What it was is ' a system of magick' . If you want to know what is meant by the person who first defined it, go to the beginning of Liber Aba .

as far as 'what else does it server its purpose' means ..... I will leave that up to Richard to decipher

 

[Richard]

If it had not been a religion, what else could it be? What else does it serve its purpose?

You missed my (and AC's) point. How one labels Thelema is immaterial. If someone calls it a religion, the only thing revealed is that person's usage of the term religion. I may sometimes refer to it as a religion, but only for convenience. For me it is more what I would call a perspective than a religious belief.

From the Merriam Webster definition of religion:

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group​

The third definition is applicable to Crowley's classification of Thelema as a religion.

 

[Richard]

.....as far as 'what else does it server its purpose' means ..... I will leave that up to Richard to decipher

I ain't touching it. That is even more ambiguous and cryptic than the classic "Whom does the Grail serve?" which Parsifal failed to answer.

 

[smw]

To postulate 'if it had not been' , postulates 'it had been' in the first place . What else it 'could' be is what it was . I define that 'was' (and a 'still is' ) , for me, as a 'magical philosophy' . It isnt my religion though.

What it was is ' a system of magick' . If you want to know what is meant by the person who first defined it, go to the beginning of Liber Aba .

as far as 'what else does it server its purpose' means ..... I will leave that up to Richard to decipher

Why? So you can try and gang up on Foolmoon with someone else?

Why can't you say what YOU think is your magical philosophy without keep referring him to books or shifting the goalposts to 'magicial system'. Crowley wasn't supposed to want followers anyway?

 

[smw]

I ain't touching it. That is even more ambiguous and cryptic than the classic "Whom does the Grail serve?" which Parsifal failed to answer.

He is asking the difficult and big questions it seems then.

 

[smw]

How one labels Thelema is immaterial.

This seems to me to be a superficial, (even if correct) point of trying to understand whether Thelema is or isn't a religion. I am batting out of my depth, I know. Though I see that the heart (not a point) of the question, at least for me, is to get a personal understanding (with Thelemic writings) of what Thelema might be or not, in relation to my own views on religious thought.

I guess in one way that still fits with labelling being immaterial as it will be what you make it. However, that does not make any questioning irrelevant. (you may not have been suggesting this outside of your point) As far as I have seen the issue is debated and is controversial within the Thelemic community. But it is 'on' the table and up for discussion. I see the other side of the coin for 'not' labelling Thelema as allowing non reductive reasoning and curiosity to flourish.

Crowleys' views on religion I suspect so far, are that they might be very complex underneath his rhetoric. He didn't want to carry on with old style Religious restrictions, so calling Thelema a Religion might endanger the new freedoms and thought he wanted to promote for the new Aeon. I also see an aspect of Crowley as being a deeply religious (or spiritual) man which to me are clearly shown throughout some of his writings.

 

[smw]

To postulate 'if it had not been' , postulates 'it had been' in the first place . What else it 'could' be is what it was . I define that 'was' (and a 'still is' ) , for me, as a 'magical philosophy' . It isnt my religion though.

Woof woof

 

[foolMoon]

I agree, but that isnt my point, my point is this

You SEEM TO BE arguing about points of Thelemic knowledge without understanding the basic Thelemic precepts. If you do know what you are talking about, then where did you get this knowledge ?

How can I validly argue, communicate or share info on rebuilding a car engine if I know nothing of mechanics ? Either I am a trained mechanic, I read a lot of books and practised what I read (or I am just an armchair mechanic ) or I learnt by throwing myself in and did trial and error from scratch ..... unless I 'channeled ' it .

You aren't 'channeling' your understanding of Thelema are you ?

The majority of Thelemic texts are written to be not understood, but meditated and followed. You shouldn't be reading them unless you are a dedicated follower.

There are plenty of commentaries about Thelema, which you could read and form your opinion on it.
I wholeheartedly recommend you to read, "The Living Thelema" by Shoemaker.

 

[foolMoon]

To postulate 'if it had not been' , postulates 'it had been' in the first place . What else it 'could' be is what it was . I define that 'was' (and a 'still is' ) , for me, as a 'magical philosophy' . It isnt my religion though.

What it was is ' a system of magick' . If you want to know what is meant by the person who first defined it, go to the beginning of Liber Aba .

as far as 'what else does it server its purpose' means ..... I will leave that up to Richard to decipher

I used "if it had not been" to imply that it had been or had not been, depends on each individual how they take it up. For some it had been, and for others it had not been, and great many people hadn't heard about it, and don't give a s**t about it.

I was just saying to you your definition of Thelema as a system of magical philosophy sounds mumbo jumbo, because it is not a system, because it doesn't say about the whole universe, men, philosophy, religion and society ... Etc etc how they all fit together, originated and work together like Plato, Hegel or Kant's system.

And magical philosophy is a package of two contradictory words made up for trying to become something, which doesn't exist in history or reality.

Liber Aba, or liber aha, I don't think it is right to blindly accept something just because it written in the books. Understanding Crowley means, even if he said or wrote something, if anything is contradictory or doesn't make sense, then courageously drop them into the bin, and accepting only what is right and making sense. Remember according to Richard, Crowley detested blind followers.

 

[foolMoon]

You missed my (and AC's) point. How one labels Thelema is immaterial. If someone calls it a religion, the only thing revealed is that person's usage of the term religion. I may sometimes refer to it as a religion, but only for convenience. For me it is more what I would call a perspective than a religious belief.

From the Merriam Webster definition of religion:

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group​

The third definition is applicable to Crowley's classification of Thelema as a religion.

Of course it can be anything. It's up to each individual.
I was just askin your own and MS's opinion on it.

Ultimately my interest is in seeing, if God could be reached not by just going to churches and temples, praying and reading bible or Buddhist scripts or Koran, but also by through magical rituals of Gnostics, the GD, A.A and OTO practicing and following thelema and meditating Tree of Life. So, it is also reasonable to presume that the messages from Thoth tarot readings are coming from the deity.

But after reading some passages from Jung, I am getting interested in the link between psychology and Thoth tarot readings too.