Reading Marseille decks - let me get this straight

[westsidegirlygirl]

Just making sure I'm on the right track here-

Reading with a Marseille deck, in particular the pips, involves combining the meaning of a number and all of its corresponding attributes with the meaning of a suit and all of its corresponding attributes... and that does it?

Is color a major factor?

The pip cards are recognizably different when reversed (barely it seems) - are reversals a factor with these cards?

And why does every book out there seem to use RWS or RWS inspired images (unless its a book about Thoth decks)? Are all the Marseilles readers cobbling together the basis for interpretations from varying sources - that is, I may have a bunch of books on numerology, and I combine that info with my books on Kabbalah and my books on Tarot in general?

Has no one published a definative reference guide designed with the Marseille images in mind? I"ve been plowing through that Papus "Tarot of the Bohemians," but man, that is a little rough going.

You see, I'm an RWS girl from waaaaay back. I do have a grasp of the significance of numbers, and of course suits, but the resulting meaning of the two combined has been for me a key to gathering greater depth from the images of the artist who created the deck (usually Pamela Smith).

I know this is blasphemy but all the cards of a given suit look the same to me. I don't see how numerology is going to help me out there. If I was just combining numerology, kabbalah, and suit/element meanings, I wouldn't need much of a deck at all, just one with black words on a white background: "Ace of Cups" "Two of Cups" etc.

So what is the deal with these decks? Someone please clue me in!

 

[Moonbow]

Reading with a Marseilles deck is very much a personal thing. People here use different methods and you have to dabble and find the one that suits you best, or better still don't use any given method and just read the cards.

First and foremost I would recommend looking carefully at the cards themselves because when you do this you will see that the pips are not all the same, each one is different. Notice the differences and ask yourself why there are those differences. You can also call on any other knowledge that you have which you think may be relevant, whether it's Kabbalah, the Bible, your psychic powers etc.... it's up to you. To me these other contributions are secondary to just contemplating the card.

There are some very helpful threads here about the pips and they are certainly recommended reading, but I think it's important to find your own way to read with these decks first. It will mean looking at the cards and drawing on all of your senses to find the meaning.

.. and practice.

 

[prudence]

For me, it was easiest to jump in and begin reading with my TdMs rght off the bat, no books, but I consider this forum and its Marseilles section an invaluable resource, possibly better than a book. The level of scholarship of many of the members who contribute regularly in the Marseilles section (and the Historical) is outstanding.

I would suggest a very small spread, 3 cards or less, and write it all down. In my experience, there is usually something that you can tie the numbers or the suit to, regardiing your question. Like if a question is about one's boyfriend and the cards drawn include a pip, like the 6 of batons, you may ask yourself, what is your bf's soul/personality card, if it is 6 L'amoureux, then you may connect that 6 wands to your bf, and the enrgy he is carrying or whatever. Or sometimes it is just the general shape created by the image, such as the very pronounced yoni-shape created by the swords, sometimes being penetrated by a sword. It may jump out at you during a reading, somehow pertaining to your question, but you can only know how or why it relates during the actual reading.

With each reading, a new aspect of the same card may jump, it all depends on what the reading is about.

Good luck with your new study. I hope you find it as rewarding as I have.

 

[jmd]

I agree with Moonbow* and prudence: there is an aspect of reading with not only the Marseille-type decks, but I would suggest all decks, that is very personal, and irrespective as to what authors (even the deck designers themselves) may have said on the matter.

With the pips of the Marseille, some prefer to pay particular attention to colours, others to numerical association with the Atouts (Majors), others with specific patterns the image actually suggests, others with the suit design (sword or cup, for example) and its associated social correspondence (government-jurisprudence or religio-spiritual, again for a corresponding example), together with an acquired sense for a numerological meaning.

The floral inclusions in the overall design also often give a sense for closure, growth, or decay - with each having its positive and negative aspect.

Some even rather enjoy using a preferred elemental correlation.

Really, there is a wide range of possibilities. What is important, I would suggest, is to actually look at what the cards offer.

 

[Sophie]

Hi Westsidegirlygirl,

The number and suit method is the simplest, and one that most Marseille users in all countries start with. But as you guessed, it's easy and fruitful to add other elements - colour, shape, general aspect, direction of flowers, etc.

There are a number of books in French and other Romance languages, but few in English. One, written by our very own Lee, is coming out in September, I believe - it will come with Lo Scarabeo's existing Universal Marseille deck. But as you said - there are many sources for symbolism - number symbolism, botanical symbolism, sacred geometry, colour symbolism, etc. I have found that intuition plays the most essential role in reading Marseille Minors, once the number-suit basics are in place. In fact, the Marseille Minors, because they don't have scenes to guide your interpretation, develop your reading intuition in a far deeper way than scenic decks.

Robert Place uses the Marseille Majors as well as the RWS in his book on the Tarot, and Sallie Nichols uses the Marseille Majors in Jung and Tarot.

 

[Sulis]

I haven't got much to add to the advice you've already been given Westsidegirlygirl other really than to say - give it a try, with an open mind and a small spread and see what you come up with - I think you may be surprised.

I've only recently started using decks with non-scenic minors (around 3 months) and I can't believe how much it's freed up my reading style.
I'm getting things that I would never have got whilst looking at a picture of say, three ladies dancing or a guy with 10 swords in his back.
You don't have to try to make 'that picture' fit in with your question so there are so many more possibilities that only become apparant during a reading.
I often relate each minor arcana to it's numerical equivalent major card (something I did with pictoral decks too).

I've also found that the lack of books has helped me - I have nothing to fall back on so I have to use the cards.
I don't use reversals with my Marseille decks - the Swords and Batons look almost the same whatever way up thery are so I don't see the point in trying to work out what way up they are.
The direction that the figures look in is also something that I sometimes take into account.

Take a look at the index of threads in the Marseilles and other early decks forum - there are some really helpful threads there: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=31857

I've found that the best way to learn how to read with a Marseille tarot is not really to study it but to actually read with it.

Have fun

 

[Crowqueen]

I'm a very visual person myself and I would still shy away from Tarot de Marseilles, but reading books by psychics who use these cards (or Swiss decks) in preference to RWS, they seem to emphasise the numerological/number aspects over the meanings, e.g. a 3 of Cups might correspond to 3 days or 3 months rather than a joyful celebration. Or it might be a joyful celebration happening in three days time...

 

[westsidegirlygirl]

Well, at least there isn't some esoteric "memo" that everyone got except me! For some reason, I thought reading with Marseille type decks would actually be less personal because there was less to go on, but I think I *get* it now.

I'll try some short readings and see what's there...

 

[Fulgour]

First Impressions

We often hear about how important our first impressions
are when speaking of modern decks with picture stories.

The same is easily true in regard to Le Tarot de Marseille.
Then as happens you establish a relationship of your own
with the cards based on your experiences doing readings.

Intuition is a living part of our psyches ~ it loves to play!

 

[shaveling]

I know this is blasphemy but all the cards of a given suit look the same to me. I don't see how numerology is going to help me out there.

That's how I saw things when I started out with the TdM, and maybe these ideas will help. I ought to point out that I use the number system Papus gives in the end of The Tarot of the Bohemians, and as far as I can tell, the vast majority of Marseilles readers don't use his approach to numbers. But from my Papus-based point of view, here are some suggestions for chipping away at the sameness of the cards.

The begin with, the cups and coins really don't suffer from the "sameness" quality. The pips on the various cards are arranged in different ways. Look at those cards and see the patterns the pips form. Both of those suits arrange the fours in a rectangle. And for the fives, they add another cup or coin the the middle of the rectangle. That arrangement, the one for the five's, is called a quincunx, and is a pattern I'm particularly attuned to. Now when you come to the sixes, the two suits diverge. What pattern do you see in the Six of Coins? I see two triangles pointing away from each other. But you could see a square with a single coin above it, and another below. How about the Seven of Coins? I see a quincunx on wheels, but a lot of folks see a square with a triangle above it. Is the Eight of Coins two columns; or two squares, one above the other?

Now to add a more Papus-inspired note. In his system, the odd numbers carry on the original idea of the suit, originally expressed by the Ace. And even numbers express some sort of opposition, since being evenly divisible by two is the defining characteristic of even numbers. So when you see an even numbered pip card, it's easy to see how the pips divide up into two sides or teams -- remember that Eight of Coins? And when you see an odd numbered card, there's that central pip you can see as the original cup or coin or sword or baton from the ace, reasserting itself and all it symbolizes in the face of the dialogue or opposition symbolized by the rest of the figures on the card in their evenly matched symmetry.

That even/odd thing holds true when you get to the swords and batons. But the the arrangement of the pips is consistent throughout those suits, and that produces a lot of the "they all look alike" quality in the deck. But in addition to the presence or absence of the central sword or baton from the ace, which is much more striking here than in the cups and coins, there are a couple of other things to look for.

Look at the interlacing of the pips. Crossed sticks and certainly crossed swords speak to me of conflict. That's how you fight with sticks and swords, after all. This fits in with Papus' association of even numbers and opposition. But look at the heart of the interlacing. In the twos and threes, sixes and sevens, the center of the interlacing is a pair of crossed sticks or swords. There's that image of conflict, and I see its presence as an indicator of a focused sort of opposition. Whatever is going on in that card is about you and the "other" confronting you. But in the center, the heart, of the interlacing of the fours and fives, and the eights and nines, there is nothing. There's an empty space. That interlacing isn't focused on a particular opposition, there's nothing really personal about it. The opposition there is because of broader factors, and because "that's the way life is."

The other quality of the interlacing that differentiates the cards from each other is complexity resulting from the growing number of swords or batons on the cards. As the basket weave becomes larger, we can see that we're dealing with a more complicated situation, with all the elements interwoven with increasingly more and more factors and implications.

Also, Marseilles readers look at the ornamental elements of the pip cards, the leaves and flowers and such. They're very prominent in some cards: the Two of Cups and Two of Coins, for instance. But they figure in the other cards. And their complete absence, say in the Nine of Batons or the Ten of Cups, is quite striking and evocative. I used to think that people complaining about the altered Six of Batons in the LS photoreproduction of the Conver Marseilles was silly nitpicking. But the leaves in the original of that card in the Conver are actually particularly long and weedy looking, and the substitute leaves in that deck (taken from the Seven of Batons -- the Six was missing from the original) aren't the same thing at all. I understand now how startling the substitution is for people who are used to taking the ornamental leaves into account when they read.

That's rambliing, so I'll stop now. I hope this helps point out ways to get to the uniqueness of the individual pip cards.