Robert M Place

[WOGIT]

One of the first books on Tarot that I read was write by a Robert. M. Places the author of "The Tarot ,History, Symbolism & Divination". I strongly recommend this book for anyone that wants to learn about Tarot. I thought this book was great , packed with a lot of good information. I plan on reading this one again

 

[dadsnook2000]

Good choice

For a "first" book, you certainly hit it big. His book is a real treasure of history and development of the tarot as it built upon earlier symbology and mythology and artworks for its fundamental meanings. I particularly like his method of "flow" reading based on the card's figure-postures. I consider it one of my "top 10" books. Dave

 

[room]

I am waiting for this Place book in the mail. I was so impressed with his book for the Tarot of the Saints that I thought I needed this overall history too.

How does the Place book compare to "Mystical Origins of the Tarot: From Ancient Roots to Modern Usage" by Paul Huson?

 

[Queen of Pentacle]

You have made a very good choice. Robert Place book on The tarot, history, symbolism and Divination is among the most interesting and complete I ever saw... It is amazing with informations and yet so practical and interesting.
Go for it.

 

[Debra]

Good price on Robert Place book

The Tarot: History, Symbolism, and Divination [BARGAIN PRICE] (Paperback)
by Robert Place

at a very good price, temporarily, paperback, may have some remainder marks, at Amazon.com

 

[room]

Hello all!

I received my book and I'm enjoying it.

I do have one reaction to Place's fondness for the mystical tarot allegory angle. He mentions Triumph parades as a basis for the order and story of the allegory of the Majors. Apart from early decks being unnumbered, I have another concern.

[Ummmm.....I would like to preface my opinion by saying that I really don't want to argue about this or have someone tell me I'm bad or stupid because I hold this opinion. I had enough ridicule and snarky comments in another thread and don't want to repeat the unpleasant experience.}

Triumph processions were not always done to a formulaic order. They also didn't include the same carts in every parade. I get this information from my interest in art history and the pictures of such processions that I have seen, as well as other writings.

My feeling on this is that it was a straight financial consideration--larger towns and cities could put on a good show with lots of carts, and smaller places couldn't afford that so they chose a few triumph carts of great impact and popularity--Death being a perennial favourite guaranteed to arouse the crowd and scare the kiddies--and their little processions were recieved with much enjoyment by the populace.

If you think about it, that's kind of like our present-day Santa Claus parades. New York City is not going to put on the same parade as Smalltown, Anywhere. (Trust me, I live in a small town--you get 8 floats, 2 bands, some clowns and Santa. It's all over in 10 minutes, you've got to run around the corner to catch it again.)

I am not at all comfortable with Robert Place's assumption that this is the formula of the great hierarchical allegory of tarot. He's got a point in that certain figures tend to repeat, and figures are paired together, but he's sticking to a formula that simply did not exist everywhere, so how can it be THE Mystical Allegory and THE mystical order of things and THE story to follow?

It can't, it's just HIS story of what the arrangement and connections Might Have Been.

Too broad an assumption, too narrow a story for me. He seems to be quite rhapsodic about it, which makes me very cautious that he's imparting a bit of fictional drama to the Majors to suit his need for a deeply mysterious allegory, laden with numerology and holy hierarchy, and wrapped up nicely in gold.

Maybe he was channeling Santa Claus?

 

[Debra]

I can't contribute on the substance of what you're saying, but I'm glad you posted this, as I just yesterday ordered Place's book myself and can't wait to read it...I'll keep this in mind and maybe do some more research should it seem appropriate...so thanks!

 

[dadsnook2000]

One possibility

From the time of the early Crusades, Europe was swept by news, awareness, exposure and travelers spreading tales and philosophies. The intellectuals of that era, and there were many, gathered and developed theories on just about everything. I'm sure that a general body of beliefs about Triumph parades came into being -- coalescing into an "ideal" that may not have matched either the small town parades or the larger city parades.

Given the nature of that era's curiosity and uneven knowledge-base, a lot of conjecture and concepts were advanced and written down. With the focus of life being centered around organized religion and the ruling class (landed nobles and military groups, with a small but growing merchant group), the symbolism that existed thru myths and religion were most likely widely incorporated into the ideas portrayed in Triumph parades.

The point here is that the concepts behind the parades, not the various parades themselves, might have influenced the minds of the time and the writings of Robert Place. Just an opinion.

PS. Room, we don't make a practice of attacking others views here on AT, so rest assured that you will not be flamed. We may disagree or we may discuss views but we try to be encouraging and civil. You have arrived at the right place. Dave

 

[firemaiden]

I am waiting for this Place book in the mail. I was so impressed with his book for the Tarot of the Saints that I thought I needed this overall history too.

How does the Place book compare to "Mystical Origins of the Tarot: From Ancient Roots to Modern Usage" by Paul Huson?

I have both books and loved both of them. They have different pictures in them, but there is quite a bit of overlap between the two books. I like Huson's compendium of historical meanings for the cards immensely - it is fantastically valuable.

Huson seems to be much more sold on medieval drama, mystery, morality plays as an explanation of the tarot triumph origins

In Place's book I learned more about parallels in alchemical imagery.

Both fascinating and necessary books.

 

[room]

Okay thanks Dave, I appreciate your comments.

Yeah, everybody has their own theory, including the people from the Renaissance. There is no doubt the concepts worked back and forth, but to pin it down into *one* correctly numbered allegory as Place does made no sense to me.

Minchiate decks have many more majors majors in them, some of them like the tarot trumps, some not, and some of the tarot trumps change the names--I think Juno and Jupiter from the Minchiate are the Empress and Emperor in tarot or the Pope and Popesse--the concepts moved around and were customized by the people of the day, including within parades where Jupiter and Minerva, Venus, Mars, Vulcan et al. were very popular. Death and the Fool seem to have been standardized, if not in position, than in use.

I was quite surprised that Place would describe allegorical absolutes with such conviction, bordering on rhapsodic rhetoric, since he seems careful about history, examining various theories and symbolism and telling people that we don't really know. He's quite devoted to this theory of an allegorical absolute of 22 cards in such and such an order, which does not hold true under evidence.

The things he explains as reasons for his conviction are things like the parades which varied widely as I said, so I have no idea why he has latched onto this dogmatic assumption. You are right in saying that concepts influenced, but there is no evidence that all the symbolism was standardized in these years, in theory or in practice, and yet Place says it was and it contained a mysterious allegory.

I'm sure that a general body of beliefs about Triumph parades came into being -- coalescing into an "ideal" that may not have matched either the small town parades or the larger city parades.

I don't agree, I think this is a fallacy of our time. We are projecting those standardized beliefs and ideals in a yearning for a set theory of mysticism. There is no evidence that they were standardized.