Secret Pidgin Language-Medieval Lingua Franca

[venicebard]

Mark Filipas site is now back up:

http://www.spiritone.com/~mfilipas/Masquerade/Essays/allusion.html

Kwaw

Finally, a coherent theory to challenge mine (I am just now learning of Mark Filipas's theory)! This will require more study.

My initial reaction is that my respect for the designers of tarot is increased tenfold. For the trumps to embody two alphabetic systems at once is truly amazing . . . as amazing in its way as the preservation of a millenniums-old science of matter in bardic tradition itself (unbeknownst to bards themselves? though they must have had some indication just how important what they preserved was). [Edited to add: actually, this science was divided into two packages so to speak (perhaps simply having survived that way, sans design), bardic and Hebrew traditions, which yield the ancient science only by their conjunction.]

It is extremely helpful to know, for instance, that the stick in LeBateleur's hand is a thin, hollow tube, and to confirm that LaLune represents its conjunction with the sun: but I would go further and confirm that the latter image does indeed (as Mark Filipas suggests) indicate eclipse specifically, because the mere phase of conjunction, 'dark o' the moon' (phase in which I was born), is represented bardically by LeSoleil, this being doubled I or mistletoe/loranthus, standing for both Yule (winter solstice) and dark o' the moon (namely the 'phase' between the end and the beginning, marked by the extra day in the 13-month tree-calendar).

It would of course be helpful to know how many terms in the medieval lexicons were not pictured in the trumps, and how many duplicates of terms there are to make things overly 'flexible', and indeed a few links seem slightly stretched. But overall Mark Filipas's theory seems quite impressive, and I am inclined to give it credence. I do not think it precludes mine, of course, as his is based on Hebrew numbering, whose existence I have never of course denied, and indeed there are intimate relations between the two numbering systems. But again, it forces an upward adjustment in my estimation of the minds who created TdM, and it gives me much to think about.

Much thanx, M. le Kwaw (I return now to Mark's site).

 

[le pendu]

What's great about Mark's site is that it is put together in a way that is easy to understand and grasp the concept. He also provides compelling evidence.

Venicebard, I would love it if you did something similar with your theory, as it stands, I still have difficulty understanding why you believe what you do, and a presentation like Mark's would be... for me at least.. very helpful!

 

[venicebard]

Venicebard, I would love it if you did something similar with your theory, as it stands, I still have difficulty understanding why you believe what you do, and a presentation like Mark's would be... for me at least.. very helpful!

Yes, and you are surely not alone. Fortunately, my old Toshiba laptop crashed, which means I shall have to get a more modern machine, so perhaps my capabilities will improve soon (hopefully to include the ability to post graphics, so that I might provide some useful tables and diagrams! I'll work on it).

 

[le pendu]

We could improve the already existing pages you created at Tarotpedia with images and graphs, and especially correspondence tables.

I think if you study how Mark has presented his case, it would help to condense the information into something that can be cleary presented and easily understood by others, and then they could make their own mind up to agree or disagree with what you propose.

I'm happy to help you with this. That way, we can point to the information on the site rather than bringing it up scattered across threads.

 

[venicebard]

Must share, must share

I'm happy to help you with this. That way, we can point to the information on the site rather than bringing it up scattered across threads.

Very gracious (I'll be in touch).

I MUST comment on Mark Filipas's "Marseilles Lexicon" (which I find invaluable!). [If need be, move this to another thread.]

First of all, I believe GLGL 'Gear wheel (around her neck)' is the same word as gilgul, Kabbalists' word for reexistence (metampsychosis, reincarnation). Second, regarding this same trump, he noticed the 'wing (object at her waist?)' (GDPA, GP) in III L'Imperatrice! (so I'm NOT seeing things). In answer to his question-mark, it is the wing of, or more accurately an extension of the tail feathers of, the bird-of-prey (GZ, GS) on the shield, and it is embracing her about the middle.

But I'm beginning to see the big picture here, I think. Having proved to my satisfaction that the designers had the benefit of an amalgamation of insular Keltic bardic tradition and Jewish Merkabah (in the Languedoc), I had taken tarot itself to be essentially Gnostic Christian (underground survival of Keltic Christianity), swayed by arguments that it would probably not have a Pope in it if it were Jewish. But I see now that it is TRULY cross-ethnic in content. Indeed if Robert is correct and the titles-and-numbers were added later, one might construe that Jews could see in V LePape -- as I do, and I am hardly Christian (being Gnostic and a firebrand) -- an oblique version of the High Priest from the Temple era and thus the rite or power of blessing/cleansing, as befits its bardic assignment to beyt, since beyt in early Semitic showed the High Priest's mitre [even if at that time it may have been from the cult of Baal and not Yahweh (though the two are oft identified?), the former god having accompanied the alef-bet of seafarers far and wide (clear to the New World: brazil is 'lead' in Phoenician, I believe).]

And the key, which is beginning to clarify things hazy to me previously, is to see the Hebrew lexicon content as its exoteric side -- since the sequential numbering of the alef-bet would have been known, presumably, from the Book of Revelations and elsewhere -- and the bardo-Qabbalistic content as its esoteric side. I can already (after one hour's study) give examples examples moved to Mark Filipas thread].

This has me excited (which is obvious). Again I thank Robert, and Mark Filipas, wherever you are, to whom I owe a great debt!

 

[le pendu]

But I'm beginning to see the big picture here, I think. Having proved to my satisfaction that the designers had the benefit of an amalgamation of insular Keltic bardic tradition and Jewish Merkabah (in the Languedoc), I had taken tarot itself to be essentially Gnostic Christian (underground survival of Keltic Christianity), swayed by arguments that it would probably not have a Pope in it if it were Jewish.

I've had that problem too, and more specifically with Judgement. It's one of the things that really bothers me. I have a hard time taking Judgement out of a Christian context.. although that wouldn't apply for Gnostic Christians either. Concerning the Pope though, I do wonder if he is wearing the breastplate?

I'm glad you find the titles numbers thing helpful, I just keep noticing more and more things. The number on Dodal's Le Pendu cuts off the whole crossbeam!! The Pages are another clue. I should update that thread.

I wish I had enough knowledge of Hebrew to really test mark's theory. I'd love to have the ability to use different words and pick up different things and see if other letters for each card are just as likely. I just don't know the language so I can't tell how fair he's being. When I have an photograph.. I could call it an Image, Picture, Graphic, Shot.. etc. Is he only choosing the word with the right letter? Even if it is less common or not really appropriate? Is he only focusing on the things that do match and ignoring the ones that don't?

Once I have an understanding of where you're coming from, hopefully we will be able to determine how it holds up, but I'll probably be at a similar disadvatage there as well.

And of course.. to be a least slightly on topic here.. ... same goes for Lingua Franca.

 

[kwaw]

I wish I had enough knowledge of Hebrew to really test mark's theory. I'd love to have the ability to use different words and pick up different things and see if other letters for each card are just as likely.

Don't need to know Hebrew Robert, just be able to read a hebrew / english dictionary [for example one of Mark's own sources, the Jastrow].

Kwaw

 

[le pendu]

You're right Kwaw, probably easier than trying to learn the language. It does seem like it would be of great use to know the language though, a native or learned speaker it seems to me would have an advatage.

I'm going to start a new Filipas thread so everyone can discuss his work further, and let this one continue on with Lingua Franca.

 

[kwaw]

It is extremely helpful to know, for instance, ... to confirm that LaLune represents its conjunction with the sun: but I would go further and confirm that the latter image does indeed (as Mark Filipas suggests) indicate eclipse specifically,

That there is an indication of an eclipse is a common observation made by many that does not originate with Mark [do a search and I am sure you will find discussion of lunar eclipse on this forum in several threads].

The numbering of the moon and sun themselves 18/19 is possibly determined by a reference to the samos and metonic cycles.

The hebrew word QDR (black, blackish, dark, darkened, heavily, mourn) could also be used I suggest in reference to the concept of an eclipse. Some examples of its biblical usage include:

All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.

Kwaw

 

[kwaw]

I've had that problem too, and more specifically with Judgement. It's one of the things that really bothers me. I have a hard time taking Judgement out of a Christian context..

People other than Jews were interested in the Hebrew language; however,Jewish mystical texts such as the Zohar are full of God's Judgement and God's Mercy; and the concept of the resurection exists in Judaism too, it is not solely a Christian concept:

Quote from the Zohar, Vol 2 of I. Tishby translation:

"This snake will in the future give birth to these bodies before its time. This is the meaning of 'Before it travailed it gave birth'. The period of gestation for a snake is seven years, and in this case it is six - which is not its usual time. And at the same time it gives birth to them it will die - from the act of giving birth, as it is written 'He will swallow up death for ever' (Isaiah 25:8) and it is written 'Your dead shall live, my dead bodies shall arise (Isaiah 26:19" (Zohar II, 219b-220a).

Of which Tishby's note of commentary and explanation state:

153 When a man dies, the Shekinah takes the soul, and the 'other side', ie death, takes the body.

154 When the dead are resurrected they are taken out of the snake's (ie death's) jurisdiction. This is depicted here as a snake giving birth, which will happen during the sixth millenium. This is an 'untimely' birth, because the snake usually gives birth seven years after conception.

155 'the other side' will perish at the end of days, and its death will occur as a result of giving birth to the bodies of the dead at the resurrection. p.740 Vol. II of Zohar by Tishby & Lachower, tr. David Goldstein.

Kwaw