So many versions of Marseilles

[zephyr_heart]

Being quite new to tarot, I am amazed at how many versions of Marseilles out there, "the genuine, original and historical", "the photo-reproduction", "the recolored ones" and "the Marseilles inspired ones".

Well, my questions about these versions are:

• Whether this thing has to do with the long history of tarot or not?

• Why there's so very many versions?

• Does that mean the "deviations" (the recolored and inspired ones) are what is considered as "impure" ones?

• If so, which one to use best?

For moderators: I don't know whether to post this in Marseilles or in Historical. So sorry if I post it in the wrong space.

 

[Maskelyne]

I'm new to Tarot too, so my knowledge is rather shallow, but here's my 2 cents. There's a lot of variation in the traditional decks because they were produced locally and in small batches - no mass production. Cards were printed like this for maybe a couple of centuries, so there was lots of room for variation. When commercial color printing came along in the 19th century, the Marseille patterns were often adapted to the new medium. At this point, also, more elaborate detailing started to creep in.

Besides the photographic reproductions of old decks, the restorations of Jean-Claude Flornoy are probably the most faithful recreations of the old cards. Some people prefer the blurry, ambiguous lines and colorings of the facsimile decks to Flornoy's crisp reproductions. The Camoin-Jodorowsky deck claims to restore, through conjecture in some cases, the "original" Tarot de Marseille, a claim subject to some skepticism.

Historical purity counts for historians. For reading purposes, use what pleases you. I like the Camoin-Jodorowsky deck, eggs and all.

Flornoy's web site has a bit of interesting historical information:
http://www.tarot-history.com/

David

 

[Luminosa]

Hello,

My idea of the tarot is that it is a magical instrument with numerous practicle applications. It is connected to the plastic world of Yesod, the world of the Devil (78 cards = 7+8 = 15). My knowledge of the tarot is not that big, but I think if one would speak in terms of “purity”, I should say the Marseilles, Visconti and ancient Italian tarots are the closest. I have been superficially investigating the trumps in the various ancient Marseilles families and as far as symbolism is concerned, small details change from one another, but the message is basically the same or sometimes even enhanced by an almost unperceptible little thing. It is pretty amazing! Maybe the “maîtres cartiers” were connected to mystery schools? I prefer the blurry, ambiguous lines and colorings of the facsimile decks, because I think these were made on purpose and there exactly lie all the answers and the explanation of profound mysteries.

As for readings, I think any will do, as far as you have the concepts in mind.

Luminosa

 

[zephyr_heart]

Hi, Maskelyne, thanks for the link. Just browsed over and read it.

Hi Luminosa, that's an interesting take you had there.

As for me, I have the Univ. Marseille by LoSc which was based on C. Burdell's designs.

 

[zephyr_heart]

By the way, what is "maîtres cartiers”?

 

[Debra]

Master cardmakers.

Here's one of my best friends http://babelfish.yahoo.com/?fr=avbbf-us

 

[Moonbow]

To answer your last question first, any Marseilles is good to use providing you like it. Historical originals are no better than reproductions or recolourings for readings, they are just more beautiful in some peoples' eyes. A few new Marseilles deck designers have taken some artistic license and their decks are more hybrids of few versions, and that's okay to read with too.

To really understand the Marseilles just follow your research where it takes you, follow links in this forum that interest you. One of my favourite sites for getting the history of the cards into perspective is Andy Pollet's site.

It may seem to some people that all the Marseilles decks are the same, or too similar to warrant having more than one, but once you delve into them more you will realise that their secrets lie in their differences, so comparison of decks really does help your understanding of them.

 

[zephyr_heart]

Thanks for the link, Moonbow*

I've just been to the site you mentioned.

It said about something of local publishings everywhere across Italy, France, Spain and Germany, like Maskelyne said:

There's a lot of variation in the traditional decks because they were produced locally and in small batches - no mass production.

And I think because of that mass production, then the cards are varied more and more across different regions.

I don't know. Correct me if I'm not precisely correct about this here.

Thanks,
zephyr

 

[nisaba]

So, if I want to win an argument with a certain someone ...

We are debating about contemporary Marseilles decks. The specific deck we are debating has Marseilles-style pips, but I reckon the Courts and Majors are very RW-like in at least their symbolism.

If I were to explain my perspective to this person, how would I explain "real Marseilles trumps" to be: stripped of symbolism? Blocky? Something else? Is there a particular thing about the Majors and courts that makes them Marseilles-like, or modern-like? (aside from artistic style)?

 

[zephyr_heart]

We are debating about contemporary Marseilles decks. The specific deck we are debating has Marseilles-style pips, but I reckon the Courts and Majors are very RW-like in at least their symbolism.

If I were to explain my perspective to this person, how would I explain "real Marseilles trumps" to be: stripped of symbolism? Blocky? Something else? Is there a particular thing about the Majors and courts that makes them Marseilles-like, or modern-like? (aside from artistic style)?

Generally, some people tend to group the "real" decks based on:

• Timeline, the earlier the deck, the more "real" it is considered
• Place of origin, ususally the ones from Italy to southern France is considered much more authentic and genuine than the ones printed in central or northern France, or Spain, or Switzerland, or Germany ones, because the first sightings of tarot recorded by history are within that areas.

But from what I see, there's actually no real one, because the tradition of apprenticeship is what makes each region of origination of Marseilles style each unique and different.