Still can&#39t find which deck this is....HELP!!!

[Firemoon]

Hi,

I've been doing tarot for years, and am most familiar with the popular Rider-white deck and the Crowley. I'm presently doing a theater piece in which 7 of the major arcana are mentioned. It deals with an occurrence around the turn of the century on the British Isles. The descriptions exactly match no tarot deck I've seen or worked with. Here are the descriptions themselves:

1. The wheel of fortune turns from the mad seas of chaos, coronation, degradation.

2. Triangle of effulgent light raining meteors red and white whose solar iridescence fails to penetrate the night of a castaway loose on the deep.

3. In the uncertain light of a pallid moon the eye shapes empty chimera.

4. As lightning strikes the sea-girt the lamp's snuffed out in a widdershin route.

5. Three by Seven in a madcap dance, the world blazes destruction.

6. Black legs rooted deep in earth his fishscales skim the water, the devils batwings beat the air his face flames laughter

7. The fool in triumph bestrides the world. All forms and ranks inverted while bedlam triumphs and moon calves bay at God himself corrupted.


Wheel of Fortune, The World, The Tower, The Devil and The Fool are obviously represented, but which deck? Does anyone know??? The second above, with the Triangle of effulgent light and the meteors are maybe a rendering of The Hermit, or Judgment. I'm not sure. Let me know if it rings a bell for anyone. Looking forward to hearing from you.


Firemoon

 

[Heather]

Hey, not sure if this helps or not..I had Tarot of a Moon Garden...and I'm pretty sure it had The Wheel of Fortune, Fool, Devil. So I hope that helps.

 

[jmd]

I wrote a response earlier, but I think it somehow got lost in cyber space!

The substance of my reply was this. It may be that the descriptions are not a description of all minutia of a deck, but rather the decriptions of a common deck interpreted in light of the piece of theatre being written. If the piece was written around the turn of the twentieth century, then the number of decks possibly used is vastly diminished from the current plethora.

With the above in mind, I still nonetheless think that the deck described is from a woodcut deck, such as the Marseilles or Classic. Certainly, apart from the fishscales on the Devil (see below), everything else fits in perfectly, ESPECIALLY the description of the wheel.

If I am correct, then I susopect the theatre piece is somehow about the folly of an incident, which somehow also has to do with the seas, and the myopic vision of whoever controls these operations. But back to the Tarot.

'1. The wheel of fortune turns from the mad seas of chaos, coronation, degradation.'

This is clearly a traditional (Marseilles type) representation of the Wheel of Fortune (X), by name as well as from its sonstituent parts: a wheel which floats upon the seas (in this case described as chaos, a crowned person at the top (coronation), and the wheel turning to animalistic aspects (degradation).

'2. Triangle of effulgent light raining meteors red and white whose solar iridescence fails to penetrate the night of a castaway loose on the deep.'

Judgement (XX) could here be implied. There are two Marseilles type decks (one French and the other Spanish) which have red and white meteorite iridescent flames seeking the 'castaway' bodies in the deep of the graves from the Trinity depicted by the Winged trumpeted Angel. If the theatre piece is about making a poor unenlightened judgement which somehow also negatively reflects a spiritual hierarchy, then this is a VERY apt description of the Marseilles card.

'3. In the uncertain light of a pallid moon the eye shapes empty chimera.'

I suspect this could be a true description of many a Moon card understood in the way that the Moon was at the time often viewed (and still described): illusory. Again, the play may have an aspect in which the eye of the beholder forces its holder to form empty chimeral forms, which are also later (see below) described as CALVES baying at the Moon.

'4. As lightning strikes the sea-girt the lamp's snuffed out in a widdershin route.'

The Tower, also refered to as the Lightning struck Tower (XVI) is depicted on one of the French early Marseilles type deck as being surrounded by blue: a sea-girt? The Tower is clearly struck from the right, hence the direction of the strike is left-handed, or anti-clockwise, or in other words, in the direction opposite that of the Sun (widdershins). This strike certainly affects the household, snuffing out the light (life) currently within. Again, a very good description of the Marseilles type deck if in the context of an interpreted theatrical piece in which an event is understood as against the light.

 

[jmd]

(continued)
'5. Three by Seven in a madcap dance, the world blazes destruction.'

The World (3 by 7 = XXI) and the dancer within... but why the blazing destruction? The only part here is that this would again fit properly many decks, including the Marseilles. Given the elements of the play (if correctly interpreted so far), then it would make sense to see the dancer within the world as, in THIS case, dancing upon the world, blazing destruction upon the house previously described, but probably unaware or uncarring, hence the 'madcap', later again referred to as foolish.

'6. Black legs rooted deep in earth his fishscales skim the water, the devils batwings beat the air his face flames laughter'

This description may either be of a specific deck I am not aware of (check Kaplan's 3 vol. Encyclopedia of Tarot... I haven't got handy access to it at this minute). I say this because of the fishscales, which do not normally form part of any Marseilles deck I know, BUT: in all Marseilles decks, the wings are batlike, the Devil is smiling (laughing at the events?), and it holds a flame near its face. In the early Marseilles French deck previously mentioned, there is also blue behind him, hence water, and the legs are dark enough for maybe a metaphorical addition of the scales on the legs. This is the ONLY part of your post with which I hesitate to categorically think the deck is Marseilles. In terms of the Devil (XV), however, to have its legs firmly in the earth suggests sexual undercurrents to the theatrical piece, in this case possibly described as the cause of that which surrounds the rest of the play. This is further implied by the fishscales and the watery chaotic element which also links this description to each of the others.

'7. The fool in triumph bestrides the world. All forms and ranks inverted while bedlam triumphs and moon calves bay at God himself corrupted.'

Here the card is probably the Chariot (VII), sometimes referred to as Triumph. Given what has been described before, the charioteer is described as a Fool, causing bedlam upon the world, mis-seeing the two dogs as calves baying at the Moon, and God himself corrupted but placing the Devil in his stead... none of the established structures which normally give security are in place!

If I am correct in the way I have understood this, then the Marseilles deck could very well be the deck used. If the piece was written pre 1960, then this adds to the likelihood. In any case, unless there is a specific reason why the description in the play should attempt to be a verbal rendition of the visual Tarot depiction, one should not assume a direct correlation, but one which EMERGES from a contemplation of the deck at hand. In this case, the Marseilles is certainly a very good possibility, especially given the first description, so accurately signalling a Marseilles type Wheel.

I hope this was useful.

 

[jmd]

I was just reviewing my entry.

Is the theatrical piece related to the original question about the abdication? If it is, then the above 'interpretation' from a Marseilles type deck would fit...

 

[Firemoon]

Dear JMD,

Thanks for the masterful interpretations and help. You're right. The opera's about the sea, poor judgement and the misuse of power. I'll go out and find the Marseilles deck and take a look at its applications. The descriptions of the cards which are obvious show a decided interpretational slant towards the cynisism inherent in the piece itself, especially the fool bestriding the world. Says more about the circumstances described than about the tarot. I'm mostly interested in finding the deck which the composer/librettist had in front of him during composition. Thanks again for the feedback.


Firemoon