Study of the Marseilles pips: The Two's

Khatruman

Hey everyone,

In consultation with Mimers and Diana, the Lady de Marseilles herself, I am designated to begin this thread in hopes of getting together a good-sized study group on those elusive Marseilles pips. Our hope is to allow the unintiated, such as myself, a further understanding of the symbolism of the Marseilles, as well as allowing the more adept an opportunity to hone their understandings and perhaps gain new insights from fresh minds such as myself (ohh boy am I fresh, just ask Diana })).

First decision we needed to make was to use a common Marseilles deck. I suggested the Grimaud and Diana agreed that this would work well. Therefore, if you do have the Grimaud, then that will make it beneficial. Since potentially interested tarotists might not own these, we also decided to try to get pictures of the Grimaud cards to post into this thread. If all goes well, this should be done

Secondly, at Diana's expert suggestion, we decided it might be good to introduce this study group with a look at the Two's. Rather than looking at an individual two of a suit, we figured in might help to look at two's altogether, comparing and contrasting those of different suits and looking at the symbolism on these cards. Hopefully, the images of the two's will be forthcoming on this thread.

I know the unillustrated pips either scare or remain ambiguous to many readers. I know it has caused me to avoid the Grimaud Marseilles deck that I have owned almost 20 years. I am excited at doing this since I think it will improve my skills in the minor arcana altogether. If this study proves to be successful, we will start further threads on other Marseilles pips.

So let me know if you wish to be part of the study!!

Peace!
 

Kaz

its too late to do it now, but tomorrow i will scan the two's and post them here.

~kaz
 

Khatruman

Thanks, Kaz

I wasn't sure if you would be able to do this, so I didn't want to commit you in the initial post. That will be great. Now, if the Lady de Marseilles will chime in with suggestions on how to begin the study. I figured I would look at the two's myself and journalize impressions to begin with.
 

Mimers

Khatruman,

You know I'm there.

Thanks Kaz for taking the time to scan the pictures. I have not gotten my hands on a deck yet so I will need the pictures to participate.

Mimi
 

jmd

Great to see!

May I suggest, with regards to the twos, some attention be also paid especially to their function in providing the purchaser knowing something of the publisher. In most decks, this occurs with the two of Coins - though in some, it is (also) the two of Cups.

In each card, however, there is a simplicity which in many ways 'indroduces' the way more tools will be depicted, and which shows their difference from the Aces.

Here, the swords are clearly both curved (why!? does this provide us with some information about their provenance, given the straightness of swords in European practice?). The Cups are quite elaborate, yet maintain a simplicity. The Wands/Clubs are straight, but crossed. What is the difference of depiction between the way the Cups and the Coins are arranged...

And how do we tell if they are each reversed? do the buds, vines and plant-life provide for particular details worth further meditation.

I thought I would add these questions rather than merely comment, as we may each bring our own various investigations from myriad perspectives...

Thanks for starting this thread, Khatruman, and for participating, Mimers and Kaz... and call others over too!
 

ihcoyc

The ribbon that appears on the 2 of Coins seems to have been a symbol that some have made much of. Pamela Colman Smith made it into a lemniscus / infinity sign, and preserved it --- though not the text --- on her deck.

The tradition of using the 2 of Coins and Cups to name the card maker was preserved on the 17th century Tarot de Paris, although the shape on the 2 of Cups is different, it is only a lozenge; and the space for actually including the name is left blank on this deck. The tradition is preserved also in non-Marseilles traditional decks like the Ancient Italian Tarot and the Swiss 1JJ deck.
 

Khatruman

This is a wonderful start!! And I am glad to see two of the bigwigs getting into this!!!

Just a comment, which I hope will not be taken as negative criticism. I would like this study to be kept "beginner friendly." I value the wealth of knowledge possessed by many of you who frequent this forum, but also one of my own intentions here is to welcome in those, like myself, who have been daunted by the pips, not seeing the nuances within them. I like, jmd, that you offer those comparative questions on the design features, and perhaps you can introduce your expertise into questions that we plebians may have.

I know for myself, and from what mimers has said, that there are those enthused about getting more depth out of the pre-occult tarot; however, we are also concerned about becoming overwhelmed.

I am sure that you who are students of the ancient tarot are aware that there isn't much in the way of literature about the iconography, so it becomes that people often can't find an easy way to begin a study on them. Perhaps products of this, and threads on the other pips, could be anthologized and offered elsewhere on this site to bring in more enthusiasts to this important historical era.

Peace!
 

Diana

I have ten minutes before an appointment. But I just want to add a few words. And as soon as I have some decent time in front of me, I will come back with something which I hope will provide proper food for thought.

The main problem with the Marseilles minors is that people don't know how to read them. I am not going to bother myself here with historical facts (unless they provide insight into divination). My main purpose here will be to prove that these pips can be used for divination as well as any other illustrated minor deck with people rowing in boats, and having parties. That these pips can be READ like a picture book.

Whether the actual illustrations (for illustrations they are) were designed for divination purposes or not, is not really my concern here. All I know is that the system I use works. And that my "predictions" come true. But there are other systems, and I hope we will touch on them too. This is just the one I find the most useful.

(five more minutes left)

As soon as Kaz has scanned the 2s, you will all be able to see them.

And then please look at them very closely. Think of the number 2. Forget the element for the moment. But what does a 2 mean to you? What does it evoke? Look at how the different elements (cups, swords, batons and deniers) are placed on the card - vertically, horizontally? Would that make a difference in how you interpret them? If not, why not? Look at that crazy 2 of Cups? Why does is have that red (in the Grimaud) big band on the bottom? And why is it red? Fish? Why fish? (Perhaps because fish and water go well together? Perhaps.....)

Look at the two of Swords. Do you see that absolutely amazing flower in the middle? What could it mean?

Time is up. I'm late (said the White Rabbit as he scurried down the rabbit hole).

I just wanted to throw these thoughts to show that these pips are illustrated, contrary to popular opinion. They are SOOOO beautiful. And to give you some starting point.

Perhaps other people will provide other starting points, better than mine. And I can't wait to hear them.

Till later.
 

Diana

Okay. To get back now to the 2 of Cups, which is a very unusual card.

If we take the Cups to be the water element, we can see that the number two loves water. The twos here have such a solid base from which to work on. See the large red band on the bottom? That's where the energy is stored from the Ace. Red is the colour of activity, of vigour. Of blood - where all our energy is stored. (All the cups contain red liquid). Passion even. Passion can be dangerous too, if not well tamed. (Red is a masculine colour, but twos are more of a feminine nature - hint at the duality of the number 2). And here the energy is stored at the bottom of the card which provides great stability to the Two Cups.

The Two Cups are placed horizontally. They are not concerned with any duality between Spiritual and Material matters (contrary to the Two of Deniers where they are placed differently). They are reflections of each other. Mirrors. But which is the mirror and which is the reflection? On the one hand, it can be useful to have a mirror in front of us to see who we are. But if we end up by gazing too long in the mirror, we can end up being completely narcissic. (Narcissus spent too much time gazing in the water at his reflection - here we have the Water element again).

The Cups are separated by the stem (blue at the bottom and white at the top - we should perhaps discuss colours more fully at a later stage). We can choose to unite, or to dis-unite. The choice is ours. But that little red flower in the middle of the stem is a reminder that we need not be alone if we choose not to.

As to our two little fishies who are drinking perhaps from what will become the third cup in the 3 of Cups, I will be perfectly honest here - they stump me!
 
Hadar 4 & 6 d'Espees Suit/Element attributions for contemporary use of Marseilles decks ...........