The Hanged Man... death of a Jew in Christian lands?

[kwaw]

In other threads in past we have also talked about the relationship between the wandering jew and Atu 1. Would the unnumbered card be related to the wandering jew in exile, outside of society, and 1 someone who has entered into the social structure under the dominion of an alien secular and spiritual power [as represented by Atu II - V], as a converso marrano perhaps?

I have some images of the wandering jew which bear a close resemblance to images of the fool from some decks. When I get home i'll dig them out, scan them and send to a moderator to put in as attachments [ok with you JMD?].

kwaw

 

[Sophie]

Who is Atu?

 

[Rusty Neon]

Who is Atu?

Atu = Atout = Trump

Atu I would be the I Magician card.

 

[Sophie]

phonetics - I see!

 

[Moonbow]

Some wonderful posts here thankyou all.

Looking at the links given by jmd and Kwaw I see the connection between Le Mat (and his dog) and Le Pendu. I assume the dogs are the pets of the hung men? I have also read that dogs were sometimes considered 'impure' and thought to invoke moral danger, could this be why they were hung with their owners. We also know that man's best friend has at times throughout history, been treated with considerable cruelty. Interesting also, that in some cultures the dog has been held in great esteem, even to the extent of being depicted as a God.

 

[Sophie]

Some wonderful posts here thankyou all.

Looking at the links given by jmd and Kwaw I see the connection between Le Mat (and his dog) and Le Pendu. I assume the dogs are the pets of the hung men? I have also read that dogs were sometimes considered 'impure' and thought to invoke moral danger, could this be why they were hung with their owners. We also know that man's best friend has at times throughout history, been treated with considerable cruelty. Interesting also, that in some cultures the dog has been held in great esteem, even to the extent of being depicted as a God.

Yes, but in traditional Jewish culture, dogs were associated with the outdoors. You didn't have them as pets, and you didn't pet them (it's the same in Arab culture btw)- they were not kosher. So Le Mat - if the Wandering Jew - would signify his being outcast by having a dog as a companion.

 

[Moonbow]

Yes, I was thinking more companion than pet.

So would you suppose these dogs are companions of the hung men, or perhaps working dogs belonging to them? Rather than random dogs picked out for the torture?

Black dogs have always had a predudice against them - makes me wonder why and whether the dogs were black...

 

[kwaw]

It is much earlier I think, I vagely recall the 12th century at least if not earlier - and is connected to the legend of the jewish cobbler. I have written this up in a previous thread, i'll try and find it and provide a link.

Kwaw

edited to add from my notes in relation to the wandering jew and the baggato:

According to Scholem the earliest reference to this is among the German Hasidism in the 13th century. In the same period there arose in Germany a Christian legend that seems to have mixed this tale with that of Aristeos in Greek myth. According to this version Christ, carrying the cross, rested on the doorstep of a cobbler. The craftsmen told him to go away to which Christ responded "I will go, and fast, but thou will tarry till I come again." The cursed cobbler becomes an immortal witness to the Christ, a wanderer through the nations of the Earth until Christ comes again. According to the legend he ages until 100 when he falls into a trance from which he awakes restored to the age of 30. This tale became very popular from the 13th to the 18th centuries with reports of the appearance of the 'wandering jew' appearing in Europe and America under a variety of names. He appears as Buttadeus in Antwerp in the 13th century, in Milan in 1413 and again in 1415 (bagato in modern Milanese dialect means 'cobbler'), a second time in Germany and the low countries in the 15th century and a third time in Germany in the 16th century. He is reported for the last time in 1774 at Brussels but reappears shortly after in Venice under the name of Gualdi. In France he was called Laquedem, other names under which he was reported to have made himself known are Ananias and Ahaseur. The tale of the 'Wandering Jew' has been adapted to numerous poems and novels over the centuries.

Kwaw

My notes above may confuse the issue. Just to clarify:

When Scholem is talking about the early hasidim he is talking about the myth of metatron-enoch-cobbler;not the wandering jew.

However when he speaks about the conflation of this Hasidic myth by Christians with Aristos then he is talking about the 'Christian' myth of the wandering Jew; which according to Scholem appeared at around the same time. He then gives examples of the 'wandering jew' from the 13th century onwards - which was my point, that the myth of the wandering jew appears in plenty of time prior to tarot, as against the claim that the concept of the 'wandering jew' is 17th century and thus too late.

Kwaw

 

[kwaw]

This card is not a historical depiction of anything.

Either I don't understand this comment or if I do it is nonsense, can you clarify/qualify what you mean?

Kwaw

 

[kwaw]

For myself, this link has made not only the most sense, but has provided another small, but vitally important, piece of the overall puzzle.

With dog hanging too, multiple connections across the deck (to the Fool) also become available in yet not only new ways, but ways consistant with early representations and earlier living conditions.

Well there is no dog in the TdM hanged man [or any other as far as I am aware]; and appears in only a couple of the examples of jewish execution given; and none of those show hanging by one leg. I am not sure the hanged dog and hanged man were assumed together and wouldn't want to make too much of such an assumption; at the same time I have speculated in the past about dog symbolism [for example the possible relationship between the 'hermit' as 'diogenes' the dog as in the thread on Moon card] so don't feel that the association is discountable. On an intuitional level however it doesn't 'hit' me as quite right; but in association with the dog symbolism apparent in other cards I find nonetheless intringing - as you say, the multiple connections across the deck gives way to fascinating associations.

Kwaw