the Opening of the key spread

yogiman

However, I am confused by your post, as you seem to be both advocating the method of free association and sticking to the rules...

It might be clear that I more or less lack faith about the way the cards find their position. Did Hru really THROUGH ME lay his hands upon the cards? When 75% of the time I will find the significator in the right stack it would be a huge boost to my confidence.

I am still in an experimental phase, but feel reluctant to keep track, as this could influence the process adversely, but I think I am doing well. Still ...
 

Zephyros

It might be clear that I more or less lack faith about the way the cards find their position. Did Hru really THROUGH ME lay his hands upon the cards? When 75% of the time I will find the significator in the right stack it would be a huge boost to my confidence.

I am still in an experimental phase, but feel reluctant to keep track, as this could influence the process adversely, but I think I am doing well. Still ...

I see what you mean. The idea of whether the GD definitions were supernatural or not was discussed here, although I can't seem to remember the thread. However, my opinion is that it doesn't matter, not in practical usage, anyway. I mean, one's HGA might be a supernatural winged entity sitting in a physical place similar to the Elysian fields called Tiphareth, which merely meeting it causes great changes in the adept (like when Charleton Heston's beard changed after meeting God!); or it might be a very specific state of meditation one reaches after much practice and training, by which one either reaches spiritual supernatural heights, or natural heights (quantifiable degrees of concentration). The practice of actually achieving a meeting with such a personage, however, is the same. Enochian might have come from actual angels, or it could have been reached throught trance meditation, but the way one uses it is still the same. For some, Ceremonial Magick actually "works," in essence, you do actually raise the energies the specific ritual says you do; or it is another form of entering a trance state (of sorts) allowing you to work things out, and whatnot. I'm certainly not a big expert on anything I namedrop, that's for sure.

Remember that Hermeticism deals mainly in the technology and technique of attainment, less with theology and belief. We cannot know for certain what Moses saw in the burning bush, but we can attempt to duplicate the methods employed by him to achieve contact, attainment, enlightenment or however one chooses to call it.

How are you studying Kabbalah? Maybe you need a certain focus to your studies, a plan.
 

yogiman

On the one hand I am really delighted to hear positive affirmations about Aleister Crowley and his spiritual doctrine. On the other hand, up till ten years ago I studied Charles Ponce, Robert Wang, and Dion Fortune, to a point that I could spell them almost inside out. Apart from Kabbalah there are several other things I spent a lot of time on, like the chinese and indian systems. My poor head has had enough of those chunks of information. If I am going to learn tarot on basis of the card meanings of book T, it will take years of toil before I will be able to do divination, and a lot of fun goes out of the window. On the -talking tarot- forum there are voices who like to utter that tarot is older than the golden dawn, and we are not bound by their approach to tarot. Some say they are relieved that they never read a book about tarot, as they are unconditioned. It seems to me that your approach to tarot is that of the Hierophant, and their approach is that of the fool. Like someone else at a forum remarked, maybe it is in this instance no matter of good and bad, but a matter of predilection. And perhaps the two approaches could be combined or alternated.
 

Fianic

On the one hand I am really delighted to hear positive affirmations about Aleister Crowley and his spiritual doctrine. On the other hand, up till ten years ago I studied Charles Ponce, Robert Wang, and Dion Fortune, to a point that I could spell them almost inside out. Apart from Kabbalah there are several other things I spent a lot of time on, like the chinese and indian systems. My poor head has had enough of those chunks of information. If I am going to learn tarot on basis of the card meanings of book T, it will take years of toil before I will be able to do divination, and a lot of fun goes out of the window. On the -talking tarot- forum there are voices who like to utter that tarot is older than the golden dawn, and we are not bound by their approach to tarot. Some say they are relieved that they never read a book about tarot, as they are unconditioned. It seems to me that your approach to tarot is that of the Hierophant, and their approach is that of the fool. Like someone else at a forum remarked, maybe it is in this instance no matter of good and bad, but a matter of predilection. And perhaps the two approaches could be combined or alternated.

Well academic style studying is not for everyone. Then again I think people really exaggerate how long it takes to understand the Thoth. It's not THAT time consuming to read 3-5 books.
 

yogiman

I get some faint impression that thoth tarot divination is kind of bait to allure people into esoteric literature.
 

yogiman

Your excessive taste might compensate a lot of book drudgery.
 

Satyatarot

I get some faint impression that thoth tarot divination is kind of bait to allure people into esoteric literature.

You only got that impression faintly?

On a serious note, while it may not take that long to read 3-5 books, the understandings of those books, not to mention auxiliary reading if any concept is unfamiliar may take drastically longer. Lets face it, understanding the Thoth any more than marginally takes an immense amount of time, and there are entire lines of study dedicated to it. I agree that the layman over-exaggerates the difficulty of the Thoth, but I don't think that means that students of the deck and surrounding concepts should make it sound like a cakewalk either. That will create a false impression in the heads of new students. Dangerous, because even a dedicated person can feel overwhelmed if their expectations do not meet reality.

I agree that the Thoth deck is a gateway into the occult, and I say we treat it as such, especially when introducing the deck. It's a masterpiece that can be used with nearly no knowledge, but the richness of what you get out of it is directly proportional (As is anything) to what you put into it. Especially since the deck itself could be studied for lifetimes and still never reveal every secret it possessed.

Yogiman: Personally, your first question would be irrelevant to me in my search. Crowley doesn't need to be worth anything for his brainchild to be worth it all. That said, I find Crowley's work to be extremely enlightening overall. A student of the occult until the day he died, he gained immense insight from his practices. I also do not think he was a "god of the occult" as some will doubtlessly attempt to claim. He had his areas of expertise, and he has been worth studying in my own personal endeavors, but if you take his word as Law (Hehe) then you'll have missed the point entirely. Moralistically, I don't feel qualified to make a statement. I didn't know the man.

As far as the OOTK is concerned, I've personally never been an immense fan of positional spreads. I use them occasionally for ease, but workings like the OOTK capture what I see to be the essence of Tarotic Divination. I've always personally believed that the cards themselves will tell you what they're saying if only you have the eyes to see the message. Base guidelines and formulative ideas when entering a spread allow the end message to be much easier to read, and probably clearer. However, these guidelines seem to more accurately be ways of telling the cards how you want the message to be conveyed than anything else. I've sat down with people and just free flowed a reading in the truest sense, relying wholly on the cards to say what they will say, and it's not any more or less accurate than anything else I've done - just different. The OOTK, in my opinion, does a fantastic job of allowing the cards to structure the message for themselves while having enough of a framework for it to be able to be documented and replicable, therefore allowing it to be tested, studied, honed, etc. As Closrapexa brought up with his Crowley quote, the GD wanted their operations to be able to be tested and refined, and even dismissed if need be, according to methods at least similar to the scientific method. This is what I think the OOTK did, and why it is as highly regarded as it is now.
 

yogiman

You only got that impression faintly?

On a serious note, while it may not take that long to read 3-5 books, the understandings of those books, not to mention auxiliary reading if any concept is unfamiliar may take drastically longer.

Which books are you referring to?
 

Satyatarot

My apologies, I'm still new to this site, and so don't have everything down in terms of making my posts as clear and structured as possible. I was referencing this post, which I would assume was talking about such volumes as TBoT and Liber T and so on and so forth.

Well academic style studying is not for everyone. Then again I think people really exaggerate how long it takes to understand the Thoth. It's not THAT time consuming to read 3-5 books.