The Tarot symbols origin

[Moonstranger]

Hi Moonstranger - when was the first literal mention of Odin (and his hanging on the tree) in the (latin/christian)west? Earliest example I know of is c.18th century...

(and what is the historical connection between Odin and Venus as Morning/Evening Star? the what is the connection between the star/venus and the hanged man (wouldn't venus/star fit with the Star card better?) ).

Hi Kwaw,

The earliest reference to Odin’s self-sacrifice at Yggdrasil tree could be found at Elder (Poetic) Edda . The Poetic Edda is a later manuscript dating from the second half of the 13th century, but containing older materials (hence its alternative title, the Elder Edda). It is a collection of mythological and heroic poems of unknown authorship, composed over a long period (ad 800–1100).

Concerning symbolical connection between Odin and Venus as eve star (Aphrodite Urania) pls look to my previous post where a few line were added.

Venus does not fit to the Star Arcana I beleive. The Star is the Dragon’s Head (Rahu), as well as the Hermit is the Dragon’s Tail (Ketu), therefore in old Hindu sources it was often drawn as a hermit. By the way, on the island of Cyprus there was a temple of bearded Aphrodite/Venus as the evening star (in Amathus city, did not survive until our time).

Concerning the discussion about the Death Arcana: it is the Scorpio, as exactly Scorpio annihilates the lunar body (H.Blavatsky) of a human.

In view of this I find it even more remarkable that cultures with no contact come up with similar mythic themes for the same asterism and sometimes even the same mythic theme when they superimpose a different picture on the asterism - mystery of mysteries!.

My standpoint is that the true knowledge comes from a single source. We as modern researchers might analyze the analogies/parallels, and compose everything into the true knowledge, because all ancient sources were talking actually about the same. The problem is that the modern society is based mainly on the knowledge of medieval semi-initiated authors, but once for a while the initiated come and revive a True knowledge...

Now would like to finalize the analysis of the 2nd Arcana.

It’s interesting to note that the 2nd day in Mayan calendar is called Ik’ (wind, or prana). It’s a manifestation of power, which, while acting in its highest aspect, infuse to us a spark of life. Wind is a symbol of the breath of a life . Quitzalkoatl – the Feathered Serpent, the god of rain and storm, carries a T-cross which is a union of a tree and a wind. Venus in his manifestation as an evening star is the Light, hanged in the air.

In Dresden Codex of Maya there is also a picture of a man hanged upside down.

 

[Teheuti]

Thanks for your patience as I upgrade my skill level to better present convincing graphics that can support my Tarot thesis.

You are looking for any evidence that might support a personal belief, without examining the historical evidence that already exists for Tarot or the historical context in which it emerged.

It's like deciding that Tarot came from a Finnish myth because you see some similarities and then looking for translations that best support your theory.

There are literally hundreds of decks that demonstrate parallels between Tarot and cultural myths and art.

What you are doing is not historical research. Until you get some understanding of the principles of historical research you aren't going to "convince" a historian of anything. Proof by analogy is not historical evidence.

 

[kwaw]

Hi Kwaw,

The earliest reference to Odin’s self-sacrifice at Yggdrasil tree could be found at Elder (Poetic) Edda . The Poetic Edda is a later manuscript dating from the second half of the 13th century, but containing older materials (hence its alternative title, the Elder Edda). It is a collection of mythological and heroic poems of unknown authorship, composed over a long period (ad 800–1100).

Hi Moonstranger - yes I know the prose edda is 13th century - my question is who in 14th century Italy new North Icelandic - there was no latin translation of the prose edda until the 17th century - is it really plausible that 15th century Italians were referencing obscure North Icelandic sources in their portrait of the hanged man, rather than the common and familiar 'shame' paintings of the place and time? Can you find anyone European source pre-17th (r even 18th) century making any reference to this myth? How many references to shame paintings can you find in 15th century Italy (many), how many to the myth of Odin's hanging on the tree (I venture zilch*) - which by comparison seems the most likely?

Kwaw
* -but as you imagine its Mayan (Ancient Egyptian, Buddhist and/or Hindu) then i doubt such considerations really matter - its not really the history of tarot you are interested in presenting.

 

[Rosanne]

Here is something ..maybe nearer the mark for the Hanged man (and the Devil) ..astrological.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kitab_al-Bulhan_---_human_figure_and_devils.jpg
Persian astrology.

 

[ravenest]

Continuing on my earlier theme (and considering the original question ) :

I suspect the origins of the concepts in each major (the basic or underlying concept in each card) has its origin in the 'collective unconscious', in the sense that certain symbols associate the same or similar way in all of us consciously and/or unconsciously regardless of time place and culture e.g. a crescent, a sun, star, mother, father, red : blood : life (or depleting of it): anger: fight/war : Mars: (Antares even) : eat : food: hunt : death: birth: and so on.

They have been depicted in various media from cave paintings, ... onwards. Evolving and changing but with certain underlying themes and combinations. All the way through to today, expressed in numerous forms; arts, life, drama, mystery plays and rites, systems of initiation all the way through to Tarot.

Looking at the Majors with the symbols of the collective unconscious we can see; a 'clever man / woman' (Magician, Juggler / Priestess) : fool, female leader : male leader, religious leader : secular leader, Sun : Moon, death, star, etc.

We look to see them in the heavens (stars) and in landscape on earth.

To track origins back in history ... and to research it (historical research), starting from Tarot now, it seems (like much of our 'wisdom' ) to leave Europe and end up in Persia and then move east t wards the old pre-Zoroastrian Avestan Empire of the P.I.E. Aryan peoples, but now we have left history and must rely on myth/religion/stories. Books like the Shahnama and also the early Vedas who target their original homeland to the west, in the same area.

But here we have left the concept of modern historical research behind (awaiting further archaeological discoveries and anthropological agreements).

Its the same when you track astrology. There are going to be similar themes and developments along the development of the 'iconography' but it doesn't mean any one is the root, origin or 'key to interpretation'. If anything, its my experience that what is important in research, history and esoteric or occult study is not to hold firm to any one view point and have an holistic viewpoint, I imagine the same holds for sources of things we research.

Outside of that narrow picture I see things like Mayan art or something even an Australian Aboriginal might show me and explain, that seems to relate to tarot concepts, symbols and ideas as having a connection via the 'collective unconscious', as outlined above.

There is more ... I certainly cant rationalise it as I know there is 'magic afoot' as well but that is out of the historic research box as well. However, it doesn't indicate to me one source for tarot (or one source for major symbols) either.

 

[Rosanne]

Ravenest's argument can well be seen if you thought there might be a Jolly Roger flag in Tarot.

Today: Skull and crossbones on poison bottles or hazardous products
Yesteryear: Pirate flag that used to be red- became black with X take no prisoners/death.
earlier again: Memento mori skull and femurs on Spanish cemeteries
earlier than that: Knight Templers and hospitals including ships
earlier than that again: bone stores from standing skeletons that dropped into X position...
right back in time through different cultures and regions.
Always scary..still is
many influences throughout time when you look at a poison bottle.
But if you look at the Jolly Roger you have to agree it began in the 13/14th century with Pirates not in Bone stores of Roman catacombs. This is the same way with Tarot.
~Rosanne

 

[ravenest]

Ravenest's argument can well be seen if you thought there might be a Jolly Roger flag in Tarot.

Today: Skull and crossbones on poison bottles or hazardous products
Yesteryear: Pirate flag that used to be red- became black with X take no prisoners/death.
earlier again: Memento mori skull and femurs on Spanish cemeteries
earlier than that: Knight Templers and hospitals including ships
earlier than that again: bone stores from standing skeletons that dropped into X position...
right back in time through different cultures and regions.
Always scary..still is
many influences throughout time when you look at a poison bottle.
But if you look at the Jolly Roger you have to agree it began in the 13/14th century with Pirates not in Bone stores of Roman catacombs. This is the same way with Tarot.
~Rosanne

Yes, the issue is pinpointing when 'it' BECAME Tarot ... and that boils down to definition. Nowadays 'it' has come out the other side ... one has to decide when some 'card packages' have ceased to become Tarot.

 

[Moonstranger]

Hi Moonstranger - yes I know the prose edda is 13th century - my question is who in 14th century Italy new North Icelandic - there was no latin translation of the prose edda until the 17th century - is it really plausible that 15th century Italians were referencing obscure North Icelandic sources in their portrait of the hanged man, rather than the common and familiar 'shame' paintings of the place and time? Can you find anyone European source pre-17th (r even 18th) century making any reference to this myth? How many references to shame paintings can you find in 15th century Italy (many), how many to the myth of Odin's hanging on the tree (I venture zilch*) - which by comparison seems the most likely?

Kwaw
* -but as you imagine its Mayan (Ancient Egyptian, Buddhist and/or Hindu) then i doubt such considerations really matter - its not really the history of tarot you are interested in presenting.

The subject I’m discovering is why the major arcana consists of certain set of images and where is the source (and purpose) of them. This phenomena is not specifically related to a certain geographical area (while in Medieval Europe it has got the name Tarot, Tarocchi etc) but spread over different cultures and time periods in different shapes.

.... Proof by analogy is not historical evidence.

Archaeologists, for instance, use analogies while comparing deities, to determine the identity of the gods, when there are no survived artefacts from a certain period of time/territory. This is to determine the role/place of deities. Just an example how the analogies are used in historical research as well.

So, going back to the correct sequence of the MA . The next one after the Hanged Man is the Tower . Why? This is a disconnection with the “divine principle” and dropping into own abyss. The Supreme Spirit is an ethereal light, which develops into a material (visible) light while downfall , so the dual light is an androgen . In mythology this is a fall of Dragon (who is the enemy of ignorance) , or falling of angels in Christianity. Therefore all of us living on the Earth are fallen angels . Winged Dragon is a heavenly soul, as a cognizing principle of man .

Now try to use the analysis of analogies method to continue the research.
1. The Egyptian god Ra constantly descends to the underworld.
2. Prometheus , who brought fire of mind to people.
3. Heroes such as Gilgamesh and Hercules had to go down to the underworld - the unconscious.
4. When a person falls asleep, he falls into the inner abyss.
5. While falling the Mind-desire de-indentificates itself from a Pure Mind , so Rider Waite painted falling King and Worker
6. In yoga it’s described as Apana - the breath which is going down.
7. Greek mythology: Cronus castrated Uranus, thus separated the sky from the earth forever. Aphrodite was born from the blood drops of castrated Uranus, therefore Greeks called evening star as Aphrodite Urania.
8. Hinduism: Shukra (Venus ) loved his child of adoption (the Earth) so much , that was embodied as Ushanas .
9. Spirituality. Monad which is called " Two-pronged Dragon " ( a hermaphrodite ) , descends from the spheres of expectations.

It is hardly possible not to use analogy as the spiritual knowledge is obtained from a single source. We can call it the Absolute, or God – whatever one likes.

 

[Teheuti]

You aren't talking about historical research here. You are talking mythology and symbolism. It's certain not clear what historical tarot artifact you are talking about or what historical periods are actually in question.

Archeologists who talked about "Venus-figures" - using an analogy - set back the examination of those images by decades or even a century. The Venus-figures were stored in piles in museums and considered not worthy of study (hadn't they already been classified?) until dug out and re-examined in the late 20th century.

You can draw all the analogies you want, but what you are talking about is not research into the history of tarot.

Which tarot deck in particular are you referring to? In exactly what historical time period and place do this tarot deck and these "analogies" come together and what evidence do you have for this?

There's nothing wrong with your speculations - they just are not in a form that is relevant to historical research. If you feel that they are, then you really need to study up on the principles and methods of historical research so you can present your case in a way that can be examined historically.

 

[gregory]

Yes and no, Teheuti. It would be sad if the historical area here ruled out wild speculation of this nature - or what the lovely Rosanne describes as sandbox stuff, or what was it - "supposes".

It pleases me that this discussion is even taking place here on this forum, where knows'es and suppose'es have been trotted out over the years.Me? I have had some outlandish ideas over the years, never been afraid to speak them out; whilst on the other other side of the coin, I have been prepared for laughter and sniggers . In there, somewhere and sometimes have been kernels of truth. I say take a risk, but try not to appear if it is set in concrete and is THE TRUTH.....lay it out there as if a possible truth.
It is also far easier to say what Tarot is not, rather than what it is.
Please keep this sub forum alive.

Occasionally such speculation can lead to interesting discoveries, even if they don't fit the facts of the area they started in.

I'd say these aren't not IRRELEVANT as such, just - wild. Still interesting in other terms, though I agree they don't fit any historical evidence I have ever seen.