Thoth Deck Printing History

The crowned one

gregory said:
Yes - I saw your link. :*

But the side opening box is a killer... (and I swear my two white box don't have Dublin in the address - though I am not with them just now, so I may have to eat my words next month !)

I checked both mine and they do not either, but apparently there is a American printing of the hong-kong deck... could he have that?
 

gregory

The comparison table has NEVER shown a side-opening box and the Holy Lillie has never mentioned such a thing !

Then again - if he reckons the other thread is talking of his deck, maybe we differ on what side-opening means...
 

fyreflye

Mr Booker obviously means that the White Box Thoth is open at one end where the inner gold colored container slides out of the slipcase. The Dublin, CA address for the OTO was at one time correct and I've seen it on at least one of the White Box OTO cards I've owned.
 

gregory

I believe you - but I'd like to hear from Patrick about the box... "Open at one side" doesn't' SOUND like a white box...
 

Teheuti

The Hong Kong printing was first (1969 - although not readily available until around 1971), as mentioned in an email from Carl Weschke (Llewellyn Publications) that's been quoted in one of these threads. The box is different from the US printing in that the inner gold box is a shiny, metallic gold, rather than a dull gold. IMHO, it looks a little tacky. My OTO card has the Dublin CA address as mentioned above and says "Printed in Hong Kong." The Ace of Pentacles and 8 of Cups also have the problems mentioned.

The US printing was meant to correct these problems. Early printings of the Llewellyn & Weiser distributed decks (it was co-distributed and the printer was the same) vary to some extent in the color values. The cards in some decks were much paler than others (we used to compare our copies in classes I took & taught in the 70s).
 

Teheuti

Here are my notes on the early editions:

The first edition was printed in Hong Kong in a white slipcase with gold printing on top and shiny gold inner case. The side reads. THOTH TAROT CARDS by Aleister Crowley. Published by Llewellyn Publications, St. Paul, Minn. 55165, U.S.A., Printed in Hong Kong. A second edition with improved colors says “Published by Llewellyn . . . Printed in U.S.A.” A third edition with black printing on top says on side: “Distributed by Samuel Weiser . . . Printed in U.S.A.”
According to two emails from Carl Weschcke:
"The story is that Grady McMurtry paid Crowley $250 for the rights to the deck, and photographed the art with his 35mm camera. Some of it was poorly lit, and you probably see that in your deck. We had a contract with McMurtry and printed the decks first in Hong Kong and then later in the United States. We did some improvement work on these films. It those days, copyright was not secure like it is today, and anything first published outside the U.S. was not protected by U.S. copyright even after being registered here. There were two complications - the first being the original publication of the Book of Thoth with all the cards illustrated. That book was printed in the UK and then reprinted by Weiser under the clause putting it in public domain. And their claim was that the deck was likewise in the public domain and either they would share printings with Llewellyn or they would do it on their own. We first published the deck in 1969 and printed it in Hong Kong in a deluxe slip box. Later we transferred the printing work to Morgan Press in New York and did some further improvement on the negatives. We have not printed the deck since 1977 when a new edition from new photography was published by U.S. Games. Later, after the assertion of copyright claims by the O.T.O., further printings were handled by Mueller (now part of Carta Mundi) in Europe. We printed over 50,000 decks. I eventually sold our negatives as collectors items to the OTO. I would say that the copyright issues really never were settled, but who wants to fight the OTO people? And ethically, I think they have the most legitimate claim anyway. Frieda Harris never got anything out of it. I think our edition was the best packaged of any, and that's to the credit of our printer, Dai Nippon, which at the time was the world's largest printer with plants in Japan and Hong Kong. Today, they are defunct."
 

Patrick Booker

The box is of white card, thick and sturdy, with all the sides completely blank. One of the longer sides is open, with two small thumb-shaped spaces to grip the cards. If you have seen the box for Robert Place's Angels Tarot, it is similar, although that also has room for the accompanying little book, and has illustrations on the sides.

The extra card has the same back as the deck, with the usual rose and cross design. There is a similar card with my large size U.S. Games Systems deck, although that says 'Printed in Belgium', and does not give a full address. The copyright is attributed to U.S. Games Systems and Samuel Weiser (1978).

The card with the older deck is otherwise identical as far as I can see, although slightly smaller, with the heading 'Ordo Templi Orientis' and symbol. There are no copyright details.

The printing errors are as described by Gregory. I am guessing that I obtained it in the late 1960s - one of my first decks. At that time the Thoth was not easily available. I think that it came from within the UK, although I am not certain. I wonder if I found an advert for it in a magazine, but again, I am not sure.

Patrick
 

Patrick Booker

I think that the this type of box is described as a slipcase - I had forgotten the term. It is rather more durable than the cards, although these are in good condition, having received practically no use. There is no inner box - the cards just slide into the slipcase, like the Angels Tarot.

Patrick
 

gregory

One LONG side. Not a normal white box then... Wow. And thank you for the confirmation that I had not imagined/misunderstood what you posted :)

But the 1970 one (both the Llewellyns - and one of my white box ones is NOT Llewellyn, by the way - there I am with you !) has the two part box as shown in the TG comparison table - open on the SHORT side. So if ANYTHING listed anywhere it might be the 1969 printing. I will ask Frank about what kind of a box that one had....