Ursino mystery card

[le pendu]

Suits are listed as standard

According to Kaplin in Encyclopedia 1, 109/110 there are 15 extant cards.
Trumps: Chariot, Time, World, Stag/Nude
Court: King or swords, Page of cups
Pips: eight and seven of swords; nine and six of staves; ten and ace of cups; and eight seven and two of coins.

That indicates a standard set of suit cards as swords, staves, cups and coins are all accounted for. It seems to me unlikely that the deck had a suit of stags. Kaplin places the card with the trumps.

I take this to mean either that this is one of the 22 trumps with an unusal depiction, or it is a totally new trump that we don't know about. Isn't this the only example from the 15th Century Italian decks where one card does not match one of the standard 22? I'm not refering to the type of deck where all of the cards are different like Marziano da Tortona and Michelino da Besozzo's or Boiardo's.

I understand that the creators of these decks had the liberty to say what was designed for them, I just find it curious that ALL of the other cards are standard, and then we have this mysterious card that seems to come out of nowhere.

I suppose another possibility is Queen of Cups, if that is what she may be holding in her hands. Does anyone have scans of the other court cards to see how they are depicted?

robert

 

[Huck]

Re: Suits are listed as standard

According to Kaplin in Encyclopedia 1, 109/110 there are 15 extant cards.
Trumps: Chariot, Time, World, Stag/Nude
Court: King or swords, Page of cups
Pips: eight and seven of swords; nine and six of staves; ten and ace of cups; and eight seven and two of coins.

That indicates a standard set of suit cards as swords, staves, cups and coins are all accounted for. It seems to me unlikely that the deck had a suit of stags. Kaplin places the card with the trumps.

Unluckily not totally reliable. These cards are from 2 collections, as Kaplan himself reports. Let us assume, they've the same size, same style and same backs. Does that say, that they naturally are all of the same deck?
Probably it would give security, that they are all of the same producer, but .... all from the same deck?

If the producer made various decks, for instance "sex cards" beside his other productions, it could easily happen, that this card got into the fragmented Tarot set. Do you think, there were no sex cards or sex pictures in 15th century? Sex cards are unproven, but sex pictures of course. There were even Porno books, but they had good chances to be burnt occasionally, so we have bad chances to find them.

There is a nice scene described by Bisticci, when cardinal Cesarini got knowledge of a porno book in the possession of a Novice and about his friendly judgment in this case, who could have had rather bad consequences (as Bisticci reports). Cesarini died 1444 - it must have been a handpainted Porno-book!

Well, it's a harmless sex card. But what was harmless in castle Ursini? Germany was tolerant in such matters, the farther to the south things seems to change.

Another possibility: A commmissioner wished to have a 5th suit. He took a German suit as model and the artist painted it in the style, that he was accustomed to.

I take this to mean either that this is one of the 22 trumps with an unusal depiction, or it is a totally new trump that we don't know about. Isn't this the only example from the 15th Century Italian decks where one card does not match one of the standard 22? I'm not refering to the type of deck where all of the cards are different like Marziano da Tortona and Michelino da Besozzo's or Boiardo's.

There is a falconer, depicted at least 3x. There is the Visconti snake, depicted 2x.

I understand that the creators of these decks had the liberty to say what was designed for them, I just find it curious that ALL of the other cards are standard, and then we have this mysterious card that seems to come out of nowhere.

I suppose another possibility is Queen of Cups, if that is what she may be holding in her hands. Does anyone have scans of the other court cards to see how they are depicted?

robert

Queen of cups or hearts was the traditional nude in card games. Yes, not impossible.

 

[le pendu]

two collections

Hi Huck,

You're correct that Kaplin indicates that there are two collections, but he does not infer that there might be more than one set. I assume this is similar to the housing of the Pierpont Morgan-Bergamo pack.

Even if we do split the deck into two collections/sets, we still have representatives of of each of the four suits in each collection/deck.

Benedettinis Collection:
King and eight of Swords
six of staves
ten of cups
seven of coins

Biscari Collection:
seven of swords
nine of staves
ace and Page of cups
eight and two of coins
Chariot, Time, World, Stag/nude

To my mind, the probability is that the stag/nude is an untraditional trump, a traditional trump with unusual iconography, or a court card.

Are there examples of a fifth suit in the 15th Century Italian decks? Are there decks that mix the four standard suites (coins, cups, staves, swords) and other suits?

I think this is another great Tarot mystery.

robert

 

[Huck]

Re: two collections

To my mind, the probability is that the stag/nude is an untraditional trump, a traditional trump with unusual iconography, or a court card.

Are there examples of a fifth suit in the 15th Century Italian decks? Are there decks that mix the four standard suites (coins, cups, staves, swords) and other suits?

I think this is another great Tarot mystery.

robert [/B]

It's just a very unlikely trump ...., all suggestions do not satisfy. There are 5-suits-examples in Germany, not in Italy, or only in a special manner, as fai I know (the Trionfi are a 5th suit; the Mantegna has 5 suits). When the naked lady presents an extra suit, then with the Trionfi it would be 6 suits. We know, that they had been, but ...

Do we've any handpainted nude as Trionfi from 15th century? We've naked putti, but male. We've very unclear naked persons on judgment.
These handpainted cards were for the court and cardplaying was a matter for "Ladies" - so: no naked female persons.

We#ve a rather sexy Fool in the Charles VI - which is near to the castle Ursino cards (cause of the Hermit; the 16 d#Este-cards also have a sexy fool). Perhaps it's a rare example "Trionfi for men ".

We've decorating animals for the aces in the Parisian Tarot. The ace of cups has a stag - in Kaplan 1, p. 135).

It surely is not Temperance - why should just be Temperance a nude . The Charles VI-Temperance is known, it's full clothed as usual.

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Hi Robert,

"Isn't this the only example from the 15th Century Italian decks where one card does not match one of the standard 22?"

I think the Castello Ursino nude is the most bizarre card that has come down to us.

Perhaps it is the *Ace* of Cups - aces of cards get unusual treatment in decks, painted or printed. Maybe it is the maker or commissioner's symbol, which gets a special card.

But stag it is not the only one to differ from the 22 normal subjects - you have Faith, Hope and Charity in the Cary-Yale pack; the Biscione (Visconti emblem) in the Tozzi pack (an Ace or a trump?); and of course the Goldschmidt cards. There are also the differences between the two great traditions in depiciting subjects like the Star, Moon, Sun and World (Visconti types and Este-Bologna types) - if they both did not have descendants that told us they were meant to be the same subject, we wouldn't know for sure. The PMB Strength card is unique too (except for the Lombardy copy) - Hercules and the virtue of "Fortitude" is never shown this way in any other place, Tarot cards or other art.

I also think that the historical selective process for preserving the earliest cards may have been influenced by the later standard printed decks - and that weird cards therefore were more easily lost, since they didn't resemble anything normal.

But really, if considered a trump, I think the Castello Ursino nude is the strangest. We'll have to do a lot of looking at art to find something comparable.

There are five suits, too - in Brambilla, the Court cards hold Arrows, but the suit is Batons; in the Cary-Yale, the pips are arrows, but the Court cards hold Batons. So arrows was clearly a "substitute" suit at some point. Boiardo, at an unknown date around 1465 (maybe later) used Arrows as a suit.

Ross

 

[le pendu]

Ace of Cups

Hi Ross,

I've been trying to learn more about the Tarot de Paris, and what do I find appears on the Ace of Cups? A horned deer.

Interesting.

Does anyone know if this deck is available anywhere?

robert

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Re: Ace of Cups

Hi Robert,

Hi Ross,

I've been trying to learn more about the Tarot de Paris, and what do I find appears on the Ace of Cups? A horned deer.

Interesting.

Does anyone know if this deck is available anywhere?

robert

I believe it's out of print. But if you find a source, I'd be very interested in getting one myself.

The trumps are illustrated in color in Christina Olsen's "Art of Tarot" (Abbeville Press, 1995), but none of the suit cards.

Ross

 

[baba-prague]

Just to add one thing, having been looking at this card today. The head of the stag is not the head of the animal she is riding on. It is actually a (severed?) head behind her head. A trophy? Actaeon's head? Could she have been holding a bow? (doesn't much look like it, I have to admit).

Anyway, it is also a little like a house painting here (from 1600) although that depicts a naked man and woman together on the back of an animal - and there is no stag (though there is one as part of an Adam and Eve picture on the same facade).

Not sure that that gets us much further though. Really interesting card Robert.

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Just to add one thing, having been looking at this card today. The head of the stag is not the head of the animal she is riding on. It is actually a (severed?) head behind her head. A trophy? Actaeon's head? Could she have been holding a bow? (doesn't much look like it, I have to admit).

It might not be so clear on the internet... but it's really a collar or something the Stag is wearing, so it is the head belonging to the body.

Ross

 

[kenji]

Tarot de Paris

Does anyone know if this deck is available anywhere?

I believe it's out of print. But if you find a source, I'd be very interested in getting one myself.

Hi Robert & Ross,
I know a few Japanese shops which still have "Tarot de Paris" packs in stock.
(Of course I don't mean the deck by J. Philip Thomas, which has the same title.)
If you can't find any and still long to get one, I'll be readily of your help.