What is Love?

Zephyros

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhrBDcQq2DM

Have we all got that out of our system? Good, then we can move on.

After coming to grips more or less with what True Will is (or rather, isn't) a part of the puzzle is still missing for me. If Love is the Law, what exactly is that, in its Thelemic sense? How does one identify Love, perhaps in its "good" form, rather than its needy form?
 

panpiper

Sorry!
http://vimeo.com/11703016

The word in English is too vague - with so many multiple meanings. Crowley frequently used it to describe the "attraction of opposites." Hesiod describes Eros as the 4th God to come into existence, the very force that binds the cosmos together.
 

yogiman

Crowley frequently used it to describe the "attraction of opposites."

I find "attraction of opposites" again a very cerebral statement, as if looking to a phenomenon as an outsider. Though it holds true as a scientific abstraction, we can see an attraction in an ascending order of refinement, also literally speaking as far as the chakras concerns: from carnal, to being in love with someone, to platonic love, to love for animals and nature, to warm sympathy and compassion, to divine love.

What divine love is we imo have to interpolate from the previous stages. When I read the book of the law I get the impression that also the carnal love has a place in it, opposed to the divine love of the tradional religions which is transcendent.
 

Richard

ΘΕΛΗΜΑ (ETA will) and ΑΓΑΠΗ (love) have the same value 93 in Greek gematria.

explanation of agape (ΑΓΑΠΗ)

The noun ΑΓΑΠΗ as well as the verb form ΑΓΑΠΑΩ are also used in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures. I have the resources to do a study of it, but I don't relish the idea. I do know that it seems to be used for erotic love in the Song of Songs, but no one seems to know why, since it usually refers to divine love. Maybe the book is an allegory of something other than sexual attraction, but the King James translators obviously had some fun with it, in any case.

ETA. Correction. Thelema actually means will. Gotta get the cobwebs out.
 

ravenest

One problem I have is that ; it is an English word and I find, like many English terms, when one gets into metaphysics or the mystical, it does a poor job and we need to start expanding ourselves and understanding by adopting terms from other languages.

All language does this ... its just that modern English seems best used to describe .... hmmm ... Commerce ?

Hence the words and number relations above?

Personally I put Love (with a capital L ) under Will as its denominator. But other Thelemites disagree with they WAY I put it and use it there <shrug> ... it works for me.

Maybe it means the love : attraction : even desire for union with the source of Will (via true will and HGA?)

Hmmm ... now I don't even know what it does to x or y when I put x/y ...

I guess for me it means I want to express my Will with a 'higher form of' love' for myself and in consideration of others Will ... which might mean treating others as THEY want to be treated (but according to THEIR Will) ... not as one wants to be treated themselves.

Do unto others as they would have you do unto them ? ... but NOT against your will (is that Will 'over' Love ? )
 

Karrma

Sorry!
http://vimeo.com/11703016

The word in English is too vague - with so many multiple meanings. Crowley frequently used it to describe the "attraction of opposites." Hesiod describes Eros as the 4th God to come into existence, the very force that binds the cosmos together.

Well we can start with what it is not. Trust SNL to get it.

I remember my mom saying there were multiple Greek words for love, and in English there is only one.

I do sometimes use a prayer of protection, asking to be surrounded by the light of love and protection, within which nothing may remain, and through which nothing may penetrate, unless like divine love. I have noticed that if I am mad at my husband (usually) or kids, etc, the petty madness kind of melts away, as really not important. This Divine Love, seems to be a spiritual thing, hard to describe.

I love my kids in a way that I would sacrifice myself for them. They are allowed to go off into the world, forget me, and I am here if they need me.

Not the same for hubby, he does not get to take me for granted, nor I him. The best story I have about this, was wandering through a bookstore, (how I miss this) and picking up a book by a very abrasive Dr. Laura Schessinger, thinking I was going to hate it. "The Care and Feeding of Husbands" She had some good points about not taking spouses for granted, and not getting together in bitch sessions about them. I bought it, and sitting down, just opened it up when my husband walked in. Just him seeing I was reading a book about taking care of him, made him want to do more for me than any nagging I ever did. And I wasn't even trying to manipulate him, just thinking about him.
 

yogiman

Why should Love be under Will?

In buddhism there is the idea that Love should not be without Understanding, and the same concept is found in the sephira Binah. Will is represented by the sephira Chokmah.

We also find this concept in our mundane experience:
Parents cannot allow themselves to be too soft to their child, because else it will go its own way.
In our relations with people goodness could be misused by sociopathic elements.

But from a supernal standpoint the 2 exists thanks to the 1, and vice versa. Binah can't flow without Chokhmah, and Chokhmah can't flow without Binah. And actually they are one, because the sephirah Binah is within Chokhmah. Or call Love a denominator of Will.

But should in our mundane dealings Love always be under Will? I don't think so. Towards my mother for example I don't see any reason. Also in my attitude towards nature and animals, I rather relax. How much "Will" is necessary depends on the circumstances.

Maybe Crowley's creed was above all inspired by his despise for christianity, and is no iron law.
 

Richard

Why should Love be under Will?.......
Remember, 'Will' does not mean what you want to do or pushing your weight around. Most of your examples are mundane, and I don't quite understand your reference to Sephirot 2 and 3. Theists would probably call it call it 'Divine Will'. It is pure and perfect Will, which is 'unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result.' Also, the love referred to is most likely agape (divine or unconditional love), not eros or philia.
 

Zephyros

I find "attraction of opposites" again a very cerebral statement, as if looking to a phenomenon as an outsider. Though it holds true as a scientific abstraction, we can see an attraction in an ascending order of refinement, also literally speaking as far as the chakras concerns: from carnal, to being in love with someone, to platonic love, to love for animals and nature, to warm sympathy and compassion, to divine love.

Not necessarily. Scientific Illuminism shares a lot with science, and although there are Thelemites who view the Thelemic pantheon as just that, gods, a great many view it a scientific principles describing forces at work in nature. Generally speaking, everything that happens, everywhere, is the result of the interplay between Nuit and Hadit. Nuit is the all-encompassing expanse (perhaps "space" could be a good term for it) Hadit is the infinitely contracted point, the force, the experience. Since Hadit is the flame "in the heart of every man," everything one does plays out the pageant of Nuit and Hadit communing.

While Crowley liked to explain these doctrines through the use of sexual imagery, this does not mean it is relegated solely to sex, but it also does not mean, in my opinion, that this is only divine love. The card Lust, crossing the Priestess at the location where K&C happens, depicts the feeling one gets when carrying out one's True Will, that certainty and ecstasy. Theoretically speaking, when you do your Will, even doing something mundane like washing the dishes feels ecstatic, like the best love you've ever made. The dishes are made clean by an application of Love, shown in the energy of scrubbing. You are the Hadit swimming in the expanse of Nuit's dirty dishes.

Now, when it comes to the attraction of opposites, this has to do with the doctrine of 0=2, and the Thelemically-updated IAO formula. as in two opposing forces interacting the annihilate each other (the dirty dishes vanish and cleans ones are left in their place). Firstly, this is also reminiscent of transforming every act into a meditative one, as the application of Love becomes paramount, rather than the result. Secondly, as you are Hadit, every act you do is, in essence, "making love" to Nuit, and should be treated as such. Everything you do is an act of ecstasy (because it your Will).

The IAO formula comes in the principle of conservation of energy. In the old Aeon, the doctrine of birth, death and resurrection was used to explain everything from the changing of the seasons to a man's life. The Sun was seen to die in Winter, only to be reborn in the Spring. After performing, the phallus was seen as dead and spent. However, since we know now that the Sun does not die, that formula no longer works. The new magickal formula takes this into account, and the result is not the Dying God, but the Everborn Ra-Hoor-Khuit. Mundanely explained, the force you exerted in washing the dishes isn't gone, it has merely transformed (into clean dishes). Going back to the imagery of love-making, Sex Magick operates on certain principles, one of them being that in orgasm one feels a disconnect from all duality and feels Unity. Since that is the result of making love, and all actions are the result of applying Love to something, then that feeling of unity, plus the ecstatic calm that comes after, are what it is all about. The phallus is not dead, its energy has gone into something else (illustrated by the Hanged Man) and has most likely made children.

Why should Love be under Will?

Maybe Crowley's creed was above all inspired by his despise for christianity, and is no iron law.

Because although they may seem different, they aren't. Although it is true that Crowley had no love for Christianity, it is a simplification to describe the Book of Law solely under those terms. There is also a feeling that in his writing (not the delivery of Aiwass) he does differentiate between the religious institution, and the magickal doctrines inherent in religion.
 

Karrma

It is hard to get around the Golden Rule, when it comes to Love. I just re-read my thoughts, and it is so much "how I would want to treat myself" that I am shaking my head, alternating in disbelief and in amazement.

I wanted my parents, (who did and do love me still) to be there for me, but after the foundation and base they helped lay down for me, I did want them to not tie me down with their needs or views for me, but let me have my own. So how am I treating my own kids?

I want my husband to not ignore me or take me for granted, therefore.....?

And in the Universe, the whole or big picture, I want there to be a unity and merging, above the pettiness. Forgiveness. The thought that there has got to be a better than this. So maybe Love is in my own mind also.