"Real" Art or "Fake?"

Barleywine

The brouhaha (now THERE's a nice Victorian-era word) over the VR and other MRP decks elsewhere on the forums makes me think it's time for a frank discussion about the apparent unspoken bias among AT-ers about the "legitimacy" of the various artistic conventions used by deck creators to capture their aesthetic vision. The hierarchy appears to be that images produced by hand with traditional media - pencil, pen-and-ink, paints, printer's ink, what-have-you - somehow exhibit the most artistic integrity, while computer-generated art is somehow "tainted" by the technology behind it and therefore slightly suspect, while assemblages of pre-existing images - otherwise known as "collage" art - are a poor step-child to the "real" thing, sort of like taking the "easy way out." The code-words that convey this impression in many posts about the latter two techniques ("cold," "stiff," "sterile," "formal," "photographic," etc.) tell the tale - and I'm equally guilty of using some of them in the past.

As a trained artist my personal preference is obviously for hand-drawn-and-painted (or printed) images, but I've also worked quite a bit with collage and know that the constraints an artist works under in selecting and arranging images that cleave seamlessly to the intended "theme" of the project are every bit as rigorous as mentally formulating and projecting the images by hand onto paper. (In a visual universe as hemmed in by traditional symbolism as tarot, it might even be said that conjuring up images out of "thin air" is fundamentally just an exercise in "mental collage.") Many hard choices, compromises and trade-offs must certainly be made, but some truly compelling decks have resulted from the practice.

That aside, I AM uneasy about the impact of CGI on tarot art. I've seen what modern methods have done to film animation. Just look at any Saturday morning cartoon (in the US at any rate) or anime feature: there is virtually no fluidity to the motion of the characters. It's enough to make Chuck Jones weep. And I think some of that "quick-and-dirty" paradigm creeps into even the best computer art. The word I've used before is "ambiance" (hmm, spell-check doesn't like "ambience"); either you got it or you ain't, as the saying goes. I've personally dabbled in computer art, and I find that the interface gets in the way of my creative muse.

What say ye, AT?
 

Morwenna

Well, I'm not a creator, so I can't answer to that. As for looking at the art, some moves me and some doesn't and it's very individual. CGI is improving all the time, so I'd say the jury's still out on that (think about 1930s animation vs. 1970s, as an example of how techiques change!). Photocollage has improved a great deal as well. In any case I wouldn't want to speculate on how much effort an artist puts into the realization of a vision; I can't think that any form is easy. It's all in what resonates with the viewer. And I've learned from experience not to judge a whole category out of hand.
 

gregory

Some artists can make anything work well. Some can't even draw well and I wish they had put their excellent tarot ideas into the hands of someone who could.

I go on a deck by deck basis, myself. Some CGI is appalling (think Heroes). Some isn't (think some of Ciro Marchetti's - not that I am not daft enough to say everything he does is perfect - but he puts in a lot more than plain CGI.) Some photocollage is amazingly frightful. Some is classy. Some art done by hand is dreadful (I don't want to point a finger on this one ;)); some apparently amateur art is actually brilliantly clever.

It all depends.
 

Zephyros

I don't disparage the use of CGI either in film or in Tarot, but I do feel that sometimes it is used not as a medium but more its own sake and, to be blunt, as a shortcut. This isn't to say all CGI decks are not to my taste, but it does show if the artist has an artistic eye and vision, rather than using the medium to cover up for a lack of it.

Ciro, for example, has done some amazing work with CGI because, I suspect, he does have both an artistic vision, as well as the technical knowledge needed to carry out such work, and the results speak for themselves, as his decks are beautiful. However, not everyone has this talent or the know-how. CGI may make it easier to carry out projects, but the lack of, if to be blunt, talent, will be evident no matter what medium you use. There are things that cannot be faked or glossed over, no matter how much fancy computer work went into the work, and it is this lack of vision that, at the end of the day, decrees the quality of a deck.

Now, since you mentioned film, let's discuss one of my favorite topics, Star Wars. The original trilogy was hampered by problems, technical issues, studio interference and more. However, where special effects failed, story and character growth blossomed, as there was no other choice. Looking at many older movies one finds longer sentences and conversations, more in-depth character studies and really innovative camera work. Citizen Kane is one such example. On the other hand, the new prequel films sabotaged practically all the franchise stood for, degrading story arcs into colorful, crisp images that meant nothing, because there were no characters to care about. Those films are prime examples of CGI being used in lieu of any story or emotional connection.

I like to say about social media that just because the internet gives you more ways to say something, it still doesn't mean you have anything to say, and it goes the same for any artistic technological advancement. An artist is more than just someone who knows how to work photoshop, even if that elusive quality of what makes an artist isn't easily definable. Robert Place may be a gifted occultist, but his new deck feels bland and depressing to me, because of its sterility. Other decks like the Voyager Tarot, while not one I would use, and are far more technologically backward, but show far more "soul." Let's not even go into the five years that went into making the Thoth, as that would be both unfair, and also people just don't spend that much time into creating a deck anymore.

At then end of the day, it isn't about how you do it, it's about soul, whether or not you invest your work with it or not. A few years ago, when the Quest Tarot was at the height of its popularity, there was a surge of "copycat" CGI decks, all of which have been thankfully forgotten. Today I feel more and more that as CGI reaches a point of saturation, both audiences and Tarot readers alike less accept the glittering, shiny CGI for its own sake, and the medium is relegated to where it should be, as a means to an end.
 

bleudiamond

I guess collage all depends on how you handle it. I had a friend in college who was a master of collage. He would rip old wallpaper off of his house go dumpster diving for anything that was old and forgotten but still interesting, arrange things on metal or board and paint a bit over them...I have to say he made some spectacular work.

I've also seen digital work done very well that uses both photo and non-photo elements, but to be fair some of it ends up falling into that "uncanny valley." Certainly people can spend a lot of time and energy doing digital work; I don't necessarily think its "bad" art. I think that if someone feels their ideas are best expressed through collaging, I say go for it.

I will admit I place more value on completely hand-drawn/painted work but for me its a personal preference because I feel more immersed into a new world of the cards' images. I guess its unavoidable that some people will appreciate traditional, from scratch art more because the demonstration of skill/talent is more apparent to them.
 

JadoreHauteCouture

im gonna quote what i said in another thread... i really cant stand CGI decks and i cannot connect to them... in this post i was comparing 2 vampire decks... First one was painted Gothic tarot of Vampires, and second was CGI Vampires tarot of the eternal night...

I knew about this deck <GToV> for a long looong time but i stayed pretty skeptical towards it due to my previous very bad experience... When the vampires hype was at its best, i got "vampires tarot of the eternal night" deck... DO NOT GET THAT DECK!!! EVER!!! This is prolly my first and last deck i gave away! and i never do that cuz i love my decks too much... Anyhoo... This tarot deck was CGI computer generated (as you can see if you can google it up)... the images were pretty and interesting.. but then i started reading... and nothing... nothing at all... i couldnt connect to it.. intuition was quiet... there was nothing coming to me.. It is a pretty deck that doesnt work... Many spaces are empty in the pictures, you either have computer generated tomb, or staff, or skull... and none of it tells you anything... Pictures do not resonate at all.. So at that time i became very mad and gave up on all vampire decks... for a very very loong time (i think about 4 years it will be now)...

but the other day i was in a store and they were doing sales plus they even gave me student discount... so i got 20 percent off! (i got 3 decks, im now financially ruined :( BUT it was worth it!) anyhoo... i got this new one... and oh my... it DOES work amazingly... the images are so striking and vile, they just fire up your intuition... Its like they grab me and take me into the card and everything just comes alive... This deck resonates with me very well.. my readings are still kinda fresh, since i only used it couple times but it is amazing...

Anyhoo, what was very important thing i found out... Do not get any CGI decks... the problem of the first deck was that it was computer generated... there was no soul, just some pixels and no symbolism, nothing... With this one, there was so much thought behind it, every move of the brush, every expression... it all has soul and you can really see the point of view of the author, his mood, what he was trying to say, the colors, shapes, shades.... It is so shadey yet so vibrant deck.. Its trully magnificent... Sorry for unwanted review but i wanted to share my 2 cents :)

hope it makes sense... anyone has different exp with CGI decks?
 

Barleywine

I like to say about social media that just because the internet gives you more ways to say something, it still doesn't mean you have anything to say . . .

Just a tad off-topic, but this makes me think about my favorite observation regarding the explosion of texting: "The good news is that more people are writing. The bad news is that more people are writing." The flood of new tarot decks on the market might be tarred with the same brush. But without it we would have nothing to bicker (I mean "debate") over.

ETA: Oops. "Smile when ya say that, pahdner." :) (Someone once said that irony doesn't translate well into print.)
 

gregory

Well, there you go, JHC. I LOVE Vampires of the Eternal Night. It is very well thought out, for a start. But I don't think it IS all CGI actually. Corsi is a fine artist. And it is wonderfully otherworldly.
 

Zephyros

Just a tad off-topic, but this makes me think about my favorite observation regarding the explosion of texting: "The good news is that more people are writing. The bad news is that more people are writing." The flood of new tarot decks on the market might be tarred with the same brush. But without it we would have nothing to bicker (I mean "debate") over.

I agree, but the effect CGI has had over almost any artistic endeavor shows up in the fact that we are debating about it at all. I am sure that people did not debate the use of oil paints in prehistory as to how much effect they would have on artistic projects. Perhaps the question should "Does working faster make for better results?"
 

Chiriku

I don't think the bias is unspoken here; many people frequently and openly express a distaste for photographic tarot art, for collage tarot art, and for tarot art produced or visibly manipulated by computers.

I am often among those people, but earlier this year, when realizing that I actually have always been rather fond of The Voyager and that I'm not opposed to several other collage decks, I realized my golden rule:

I don't like computer-created/modified tarot art that my brain interprets as an attempt to look like it's handpainted or photographic, because it never will truly look so, and the dissonance is jarring.

It's the striving part--as my brain perceives it--that doesn't work for me. To my brain, collages like the Voyager or Full Moon Dreams Tarot or Transformational are very obviously photographic/mixed-media collages and thus they can't fail at their representations.

But art that comes close to resembling a real human (photo or realistic painting) but doesn't do so will always look wrong or off to my subconscious.

I can only suspect that the wide popularity of several computer generated or modified decks like the Gilded, Legacy of the Divine, Wizards', the new Witches', Steampunk, etc. means that people who have been immersed in digitalia for a long time now have grown to see it as a viable representational art in its own sense and not an "almost-painting" or "almost-photo." More power to them. Don't you think I'd like to get excited about more decks?

But all of this said...

Humans are highly adaptable creatures amenable to conditioning. In light of this, I always try to reintroduce something I previously dismissed, to try to condition myself to accept it now when once I didn't. I have done this with foods I didn't care for and with other more important things and recently, I've done this with digital art...through purchasing another Ciro Marchetti deck and giving his art another go (at least I know it's an adept version of that genre).

Whaddya know? This time around, it's already growing on me a little. I realized that this art has room for a cinematic quality that isn't common to or easily achievable in hand-painted/hand-drawn art. I will never leap to the head of the line to buy a computer-created or -modified tarot deck, but at least I can pause and examine whether an individual deck's art could work on some level, even an unconventional one, for me.

But some people do not have the inclination to try to re-train their tastes. They will go on automatically resisting all decks made by digital or other computer-based means.

This is their prerogative, as much as most people in the world will continue to prefer partnering with people of only certain ethnicities while brushing away the thought of dating or partnering with people of other ones. Is it physically impossible for them to grow to desire people of one of those outlying ethnicities? Of course not, and they are deceiving themselves if they claim it is.

However, just because one *can* condition themselves to something new or different doesn't mean they must. So it is with taste in art and tarot.

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