'Tarot' meaning 'hole-maker'?

[ravenest]

In the first post I read that something to do with cribbage or noddy was one possible etymology among many that were mentioned by Kwaw. The only point that was much discussed by others was related to "hole-making." I don't see anywhere in the discussion where "BOX" (with or without holes or pegs) was suggested as the "bedrock" of Tarot.

"What about the box with the holes in it?' is a cryptic question that I thought an historian would get the association of, and be familiar with the use of boards AND boxes (the box is a handy way of keeping the gaming pieces inside with the board on top, I have seen many board games that do that ... the box with the squares on top is a different variation .. I am sure you know what that is.)

I am sorry if I confused you, I have been talking to others on the forum in a cryptic, shorthand and casual way and most seem to get it. I am not suggesting you aren't up to speed but perhaps the mindset, dealing with 'cold hard facts' of the historical researcher is best not approached that way?

 

[Teheuti]

"What about the box with the holes in it?' is a cryptic question that I thought an historian would get the association of, and be familiar with the use of boards AND boxes (the box is a handy way of keeping the gaming pieces inside with the board on top, I have seen many board games that do that ... the box with the squares on top is a different variation .. I am sure you know what that is.)

I am sorry if I confused you, I have been talking to others on the forum in a cryptic, shorthand and casual way and most seem to get it. I am not suggesting you aren't up to speed but perhaps the mindset, dealing with 'cold hard facts' of the historical researcher is best not approached that way?

Good. I'll step aside and let those who understand what this is all about step forward and tell us about their research into how "a box with pegs" is the bedrock of the historical Tarot.

 

[ravenest]

That will just confuse things.

The question is; do ... ( well I was going to say 'do you' ... but I think we are beyond that) ... does anyone else have an opinion on the origin of the word tarot, is its basis, beginning , foundation and (yes, excuse me but I will use the word) bedrock

<choose yourself from what you have read in the thread and the conclusion you came to>

1. gambling cards

2. some sort of game/ plate, box, board, with pegs, sticks, augers or counters that fit into holes on the board, or punch holes in it.

?

 

[kwaw]

That will just confuse things.

The question is; do ... ( well I was going to say 'do you' ... but I think we are beyond that) ... does anyone else have an opinion on the origin of the word tarot,

As it think I stated very early in the thread - the most likely meaning I think is 'fool', 'blockhead', or other word synonymous thereof - ergo - tarocchi = game of the fool, or fool's game. I have speculated that the term is a figurative meaning of one with an old literal meaning connected with tree, log, block (thus loggerhead, blockhead), and made numeroligical connections therefrom with the biblical Tree (78 generations, split at Abraham giving a split as with tarot of 56/22) which I presume what Mary referred to with her comment about pseudo researchers 'counting the generations in the bible' - but I have only been able to find proof of such a meaning from 18th century dictionaries - and while it seems likely that a figurative meaning follows the literal, I have no definite proof of such in this instance. The name 'fool's game' maybe or not reference to the foolishness or madness of those who play it, but more likely I think to the special role of the fool/madness card in the game. While there is no definite proof then other possibilities deserve consideration, and I think some relationship to holes (as in hammer patterning, or the pips of a dice) is another possibility. All possibilities are not equal however, and context make some more probable than others - I think fool or some relationship to holes (pips) in the context of an early 16th century game naming convention is more likely than a relationship to 'Torah' or made up 'egyptian' words speculated by late 18th century freemasons/occultists to mean 'royal road' or such like.

 

[Teheuti]

I have speculated that the term is a figurative meaning of one with an old literal meaning connected with tree, log, block (thus loggerhead, blockhead), and made numeroligical connections therefrom with the biblical Tree (78 generations, split at Abraham giving a split as with tarot of 56/22) which I presume what Mary referred to with her comment about pseudo researchers 'counting the generations in the bible'

Kwaw - Actually, I wasn't referring to you at all! And I don't mind speculation - as long as it leads to empirical evidence that can be evaluated. Your acknowledging that certain applications don't appear in the dictionaries until the 18th century, sends us back to earlier dictionaries - that's fair. I do object when I hear something like a claim that a 17th century game "proves" a 14th century origin for Tarot (especially if there is not the slightest bit of evidence for a 14th century Tarot). When people demand that their speculations be taken seriously then we need something besides the speculation to go on.

As I said above: I think the hole-making theory is quite a viable one, but it has nothing to do with "boxes with pegs" or cribbage. It has far more to do with a standard design technique that can be seen frequently by artisans in Northern Italy (and probably elsewhere) at around that time.

Anyone seriously interested in the subject of where the words Tarocchi and Tarot come from should really read this article (that I posted here before): http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=220&lng=ENG

 

[ravenest]

As it think I stated very early in the thread - the most likely meaning I think is 'fool', 'blockhead', or other word synonymous thereof - ergo - tarocchi = game of the fool, or fool's game. I have speculated that the term is a figurative meaning of one with an old literal meaning connected with tree, log, block (thus loggerhead, blockhead), and made numeroligical connections therefrom with the biblical Tree (78 generations, split at Abraham giving a split as with tarot of 56/22) which I presume what Mary referred to with her comment about pseudo researchers 'counting the generations in the bible' - but I have only been able to find proof of such a meaning from 18th century dictionaries - and while it seems likely that a figurative meaning follows the literal, I have no definite proof of such in this instance. The name 'fool's game' maybe or not reference to the foolishness or madness of those who play it, but more likely I think to the special role of the fool/madness card in the game. While there is no definite proof then other possibilities deserve consideration, and I think some relationship to holes (as in hammer patterning, or the pips of a dice) is another possibility. All possibilities are not equal however, and context make some more probable than others - I think fool or some relationship to holes (pips) in the context of an early 16th century game naming convention is more likely than a relationship to 'Torah' or made up 'egyptian' words speculated by late 18th century freemasons/occultists to mean 'royal road' or such like.

Hi Kwaw, yes, I read your posts some time ago ... it does seem plausible (and has an amusing synchronicity contained within ) I agree, especially, (even on a non-historical level) with your last sentence ... there has been SOOO much study research and collation and comparison of previously collected material since then.

 

[ravenest]

I do object when I hear something like a claim that a 17th century game "proves" a 14th century origin for Tarot (especially if there is not the slightest bit of evidence for a 14th century Tarot).

"When YOU hear SOMETHING LIKE a claim ..."

Exactly! How about ' when I READ an IDEA (under the 'theory' clause of the thread parameters]

" That a 17th century game PROVES " (who offered that as PROOF! ? I used that 'phrase' as I explained earlier in post 71 , in THAT context not the context you are now trying to morph it into).

" a 14th century ORIGIN OF TAROT " who did THAT ???

I said in context of the thread discussion/topic; i.e.the origin of the WORD tarot ... not the origin of tarot.

Constantly I try to get clear on this thread, stay ON topic and follow the guidelines AND refused to be bullied nor accept the terms Troll ... thankyou very much!

Yet I am considered the disruptor.

I see a clear case of psychological projection here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

 

[ravenest]

I also suggest you( and any one else accepting the slanted view on what is appropriate to be posted here) read the moderators post in the tread you started about the 'take over' of this forum

 

[Rosanne]

Hi!
I am no longer a member so hesitate to state my views....
She who hesitates is lost, nevertheless.
I have seen this subforum live and die and rise again over the years.
One thing that makes it rise from the ashes is conflict lol.

There is or are few who wish to post; this I think is due to the various modes of computer space like blogs etc. Once this was the only place to go. Now there are many other avenues, for Tarot History. The questions have a cyclical nature, and the same things get questioned over and over again.
So in one way it is refreshing to see other things to mull over, as I really think this enigma called Tarot has been thrashed out. What we do not know, we will not know until further evidence is presented, and that is in small increments and in possibly other languages than English.
So what is left for the likes of me, who like to wander through historical avenues of supposes?
I love the meanderings of new discussions....for example I had never considered the boxes that games came in as some sort of artifact worthy of consideration.
What makes a 'game'? does there ever have to be an under layer? Was Tarot just about winning? Like a pokie machine, no worries about the history of apples/ pineapples that spin in threes. I do not care what Tarot has become, I use it as it has become; I find it useful in my life and for those who come to ask questions. My heart nevertheless belongs in the 15th century, and if I believed in an other life, I would probably be devotee of the new hand painted game I had procured from a studio and tucked into my pocket.
So roll out the theories and if they are nonsense, I will give fleeting credence and move on; as I have always done.
... and ravennest you are not a troll.
~Rosanne

 

[Teheuti]

" a 14th century ORIGIN OF TAROT " who did THAT ???

I said in context of the thread discussion/topic; i.e.the origin of the WORD tarot ... not the origin of tarot.

I was trying not to refer to anyone in particular.