Artistic Skill, Aesthetics in the Thoth and other "GD-inspired" Decks.

Zephyros

The creator of the Rosetta is a member here and has posted a lot about this deck. I think you're drawing a conclusion unsupported by anything they've said and contradictory to their own writings on that deck. The intention of the Rosetta (named after the Rosetta Stone) was to create a deck speaking the language of both the Thoth and the Rider Waite. The Thoth features clearly predominate, but I don't see any justification for seeing either deck as more gendered than the other. If someone was looking for a more female version of the Thoth you could perhaps consider the Liber T, only in so much as it's style is very fluid. Though created by men, which blows another theory out the window. Oh well!

Not necessarily. While I disagree with the "spirit" of what yogiman is saying, I don't know if "adolescent male" is such wrong nomenclature for the Thoth. After all, let's not forget the Everborn, who is "the crowned and conquering child, who dieth not, nor is reborn, but goeth radiant ever upon His Way." While I would not characterize the Aeon of Horus in such simplistic terms as "male" or "female" (and I can already see how what I'm saying will eventually be used against me) nor simplistically reduce it to such, the vision of the adolescent male is not completely wrong. Would I say that the Rosetta is "female?" No, but then, I don't like it and see it as a watered-down Thoth. Intimating it is female because of that is, well... let's not go there. Let it be said only that in the somewhat circuitous language of Thelema "adolescent male" does not exclude females nor does it actually mean either adolescent or male in the normal modes.

Furthermore, it has been established in another thread that Crowley never said that the Marseilles was "infantile" in the regular usage of the word, but simply irrelevant and outdated for the new Aeon. I think ultimately one sees what one brings to the table, and this includes both gender profiles and artistic merit.

Aleister Crowley said:
"Magic is a mirror, wherein one who sees muck, is muck."
 

ravenest

Well, to be honest i haven't really separated out which developments came when. Itten was a mystic and follower of a sort of pseudo-Zoroastrian group, and so i dont know to what extent he would be familiar with the GD colour system.
BING ! pseudo-Zoroastrian group ??? Where ... let me at it .... 'I need that ... because of ... ... reasons ' (Thoth thread joke) . I have been studying Zoroastrianism and preZoroastrian religion and P.I.E. peoples culture for some time. So , I am instantly curious.

I will follow that one up ... and hints or references you know of?


Some of the people in the bauhaus had a background in Theosophy, while others were also involved in the same group as Itten. There was a certain mystical bent in Ittens thinking, but his work built upon Newton's and Goethe's systems, but in his case he made his own contributions that have had a huge impact and continued influence to this day, which have largely disregarded his more mystical attributions. Examples are models such as the use of "Warm-cool" terminology, and correlating colour to musical ratios creating a system of "colour-chords" based on triads and such. Ive never studied him specifically and was mainly taught according to whatever was understood to be established knowledge about colour, regardless of history. (the majority of which I have largely forgotten, I just knew how to mix colours to get to pretty much any colour I wanted with only a standard understanding of the colour wheel. In terms of painting. In most of my work in graphic design, colour palettes would come from any number of sources, none of which were particularly esoteric.)

I find it fascinating and have looked into the history of it, starting with the colours available and used in the Neolithic palette, and how through history different people and cultures discovered applicable colours and usage and the related meanings. (Also I have experience with some indigenous art here - unfortunately in some cases IMO they use modern paints ... the traditional ones and colours seem preferable in many situations.)

Regarding the GD zodiac colour wheel, it doesn’t appear to me, from my admittedly cursory glance, that the colour relationships themselves are unique to the GD, being, based on even mixtures of the primary colours. How their system established/attributed colours to planets and so on i have no idea. Did they ever reveal their sources?

Not sure about that, however Crowley had a go at it, in the appendix in the back of 777 , ‘EXPLANATIONS OF THE ATTRIBUTIONS’ ;

“The deep violet is episcopal. It combines 2 and 3, a bishop being the manifestation of heavenly or starry existence manifested through the principle of blood or animal life.’

(Episcopal and regal as at first the colour was hard to obtain and hence expensive, so available and reserved for upper class usage ?)

“ 6. The rose is that of dawn. The attribution therefore asserts the identity of the Sun and Horus and is thus implicated with the doctrine of the New Æon.

7. Amber represents the electric voluptuousness of Aphrodite. It suggests the tint of the skin of those women who are most enthusiastically consecrated to Venus …

Thus the violet of Jupiter is definitely religious and creative, which at the end of the scale the red of Mars is physical, violent and gross. Between these we have Saturn whose indigo represents the sobriety and deep-sea calmness of meditation, Saturn being the eldest of the Gods. Luna is blue; representing purity, aspiration and unselfish love. The green of Venus suggests the vibration of vegetable growth. It is the intermediate stage between the definitely spiritual and the definitely intellectual and emotional type of vibration. In the "rods and cones" attribution green is the central colour, the pure passivity absorbing all: as Venus combines all the Sephiroth in one symbol. The yellow of Mercury suggests the balanced but articulate movement of the mind. The orange of Sol is the intense but gross physical vibration of animal life. Leo is pure yellow, yet with that tinge of green which is characteristic of the purest gold. It suggests the first form of the principle of vegetable growth, implicit in the nature of the Solar ray. …

“Virgo has the yellowish green of young grass. The connection is evident. Libra is emerald green, being pre-eminently the house of Venus. Scorpio is the greenish-blue /Prussian-blue whose psychological effect upon the sensitive mind is to suggest a poisonous or putrefactive vibration. It contains the idea of life and death interpenetrating each other and reproducing each other continuously; always with the accompaniment of a certain morbid pleasure. It is the identification which one finds in Swinburne’s best poems: “The Garden of Proserpine,” “Dolores,” “Illicet,” “Anactoria,” and others. The natural correspondence is the blue-green sea.”

And so on … starts page 93 ( ;) ) @ http://www.golden-dawn-canada.com/pdf/liber 777 revised.pdf

My guess is they were knowledgeable of Newton and Goethe as far as any scientific knowledge was based, but colour meaning and correspondences can come from so many places. Sort of like how you can map sacred geometry on top of an image or landscape or work of art and find associations and connections. In other words, i really have no idea :D
I am not sure of original GD sources myself ( via Moina Mathers ? ) … I know Anthroposophy and the system of Steiner art and colour is based on Goethe primarily, being esoteric, and considering the time, I suppose Goethe had a large influence on GD.
 

ravenest

One might also point out the highly class-conscious nature of society at the time of these decks' creation, and that many of these figures were well-born -- or liked to make a pretense thereof (Crowley and both Mathers are great examples of "wannabe" hoi aristoi).

Are you saying you are like that too ???
Aleister Crowley, Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers and Lady Frieda Harris prove to me that perfection is for the gods, and furthermore that they have left room for improvement to us.
I never recall reading anywhere where they claimed they were perfect . And considering the Gods they used, they were far from perfect too and seemed to reflect the human perversities just as well as we do. Crowley certainly expected us to build on the system and did expect ‘us’ to improve their system. But you cant just waltz in the door with little understanding , practice and accomplishment and start changing things and think it is valid.

That would be like me suggesting technical improvements to Kingdubrock’s artwork “ Add xyz to make it more appealing to my prejudices and likes”.
Apparently, time felt the need to restore some balance by motivating the creator of the Rosetta deck to paint a female version of it.

That is a rather LARGE assumption :rolleyes:

It wasn't time that decided a Rosetta deck should appear, it was the deck's creator.

When time feels the need to restore balance it will be the Aeon of Maat.
 

Grigori

Mary-El in my opinion presents some of the most accomplished tarot imagery in years. Also it's worth looking at Navigators of the Mystic SEA Tarot (http://www.tarotgarden.com/boutique/images/mystseacards.gif but the scans don't do it justice).

Both are painted. With paint.

I agree and think both are stunning decks. Though I don't read with either, as they have a personal system/vision that is different to my preference for structure. But I think both are beautiful and wouldn't let them out of my collection.
 

Abrac

The reason the artistry of many of the so-called "occult" decks is fairly basic or doesn't rise to the level of trained professionalism is because it doesn't have to. These deck are created with magic in mind and in magic a simple stick figure is just as useful as the best professional painting, usually more so. The trend of late seems to be toward the artistic and aesthetically pleasing; that's what the market demands I guess.

I've always like the Thoth artwork but that's just me. I don't know if it meets the standard of professionalism because I'm not a trained art critic; I'm more of a folk art aficianado. But to me the Thoth tarot is of very little use magically because too much is crammed into each card. It's an effective learning tool for Thelema, which may have been Crowley's intent anyway.