Artistic Skill, Aesthetics in the Thoth and other "GD-inspired" Decks.

[Kingdubrock]

I am not ashamed to admit that while it could possibly be due to my ignorance, I have always been repulsed by the Thoth deck. Not because of the meaning, symbolism or syntax, and not because of Crowley's reputation or the sometimes perceived "difficult" or "disturbing" teachings of Crowley.

What always bugged me is that the images have always looked to me like they were painted by an imaginative, yet untrained, adolescent artist. Like the kids I knew in my alternative high school. I just cant look at the images for more than a few seconds, let alone spend the time required for serious tarot study using this deck. Never could. As a trained artist myself its akin to a trained musician having to work in a music store and listen to untrained electric guitarists and drummers trying out the instruments in the store. Not that there is no merit or value in naive playing, like in punk rock or something.

But I have always wondered, if some of the best and brightest thinkers, writers and so on were GD members, where were/are the brilliant, or at least trained artists?

Other related decks I cant look at are Lon Milo's, the Dion Fortune deck, the GD deck by Wang, the Magical Golden Dawn deck. Any of them really. Even the RWS is borderline for me (although PCS's art has its charm for the most part).

Has there been much discussion about this, or the role or importance of "crafts-person-ship" in GD and Thelemic circles? In nearly all of the great spiritual traditions the relevant art was still in the domain of professionals, guilds, apprenticeship and so on, as a necessary component for art befitting the sacred.

Just wondering..

 

[ravenest]

Maybe its just 'taste' and not really a professional artists aversion , as I know some artists that swoon over Frieda's style.

You have a bit of a list there going of "decks I cant look at " ? I don't enjoy looking at kitty Tarots ... that's probably a matter of taste too.

You listed just about all the main decks that you cant look at .... what CAN you look at?

As a professional artists, why not paint your own Tarot and correct these ' untrained electric guitarists and drummers trying out the instruments ' ?

 

[Zephyros]

Like ravenest, I'm doing my best to understand your post, and I'm having a bit of a hard time. Could you please explain further?

 

[Kingdubrock]

Thanks R,

I am not speaking about taste, and rather hoped that what I am talking about wouldnt be reduced to that, for which no sustainable discussion is likely to be had. I meant no offense to anyones taste.
As an example of what I mean, in Tantra and Tibetan Buddhism the mandalas, rupas, thankas, block prints etc were executed by and produced by people raised and apprenticed in those fields. There is a great deal of mastery involved. Rarely would a temple, or sacred document use the work of someone with less skill. In music, like jazz for example, or even "free jazz" the knowledge of music - ie scales, forms, arrangement, composition and masterful improvisation is readily apparent. One jazz artist may be more to one's taste than another, but if someone who knew relatively little about their instrument and music sat in with a great band, it would be obvious, and not a matter of taste. Even if someone for some reason liked it.
A writer who knows nothing about grammar or spelling, no matter how creative or appealing to ones taste, is easily discernible from someone who can deconstruct and manipulate language with a degree of mastery.

None of this is to say there is no value in what anyone, trained or not, has to express. A trained artist may swoon over an "outsider" artists work, but would not mistake their work for that of a trained artist.

Yeats for example, may have had great respect Crowleys occult understanding, but it didnt stop him from seeing something less than great in his poetry.

I hope this makes what I am talking about a bit clearer.

Its not important really, which decks are to my taste, (im partial to specific marseille decks) but lets take the Alchemical deck. The imagery is not to my taste, but Place clearly knows how to draw and paint.

Lastly, the reason i wouldnt make my own deck at this point, might be because i am not privy to the original intent, spiritual training or technical concerns of the original marseille artisans. So while I might "correct" one of the hands or feet, I have no idea what doing so might imply or affect. Or, in the case of GD oriented decks, I have not been formally trained in that system, have had none of the "inner contact" experiences, cant memorize correspondences to save my life, dont do astrology, cabala or numerology, so I would merely be working on the aesthetics, perspective, anatomy and so on. A veteran GD or Thelema initiate might spot something that eluded me. Ideally, someone with extensive training and abilities in both art and the GD system would take it on.

Anyway, in light of the above my question is "Has there been much discussion about this, or the role or importance of "crafts-person-ship" in GD and Thelemic circles?"

 

[ravenest]

Yes, there has been a fair amount of RELATED discussion. But not QUIET the same as this.

Now you have me wondering if certain professionally trained artists are suitable to paint tarot. Taking the value of professionalism alone IMO MANY would be unsuitable. I do however like the Salvador Dali Tarot.

It is an interesting issue; e.g. in, say a public Rite of Eleusis, does one use a professional actor or a magician that is being an actor? I have used both and prefer the magician as that is the context of the performance.

I do see your point about Temple art … but in this time and tradition there was little set up like that … no Thelemic temples full of monks to choose from. No Pope to ‘persuade’ the artistic master to execute the work … and no gold to pay with. But damn it all! The project must get through … and IMO and many others – thank god and Frieda it did!

What is your actual technical criticism of the art - other than Frieda not being a master ? A criticism that helps me to understand why it is not just taste?

The following might be interesting … back then some did consider Freida a talented and trained artist, although it was a form new and experimental.

“Crowley was on the lookout for a talented artist for the three month Tarot project. His headhunter was Clifford Bax, playwright, author, and co-editor of an art & literature magazine entitled The Golden Hind between 1922-24, founded by Austin Osman-Spare. On June 9th, 1937 Bax had intended to introduce the artists Meum Stewart and Leslie Blanche to Crowley, but they do not seem to have turned up, so he invited Frieda instead. Bax may have known Harris through Masonic links.

"Sometime in 1937 Frieda Harris started taking lessons in Projective Synthetic Geometry based upon the teachings of Rudolf Steiner and Goethe, from Olive Whicher and George Adams. Frieda was a keen student, and informed Whicher that she was incorporating some geometric designs into the Thoth tarot deck she was working on. Frieda took private lessons from Whicher, and it seems that Whicher visited Frieda at her studio near Regents Park to view ongoing designs for the Thoth Tarot.”

http://supertarot.co.uk/adept/frieda-harris.htm



“In 1938 Crowley met Frieda Harris; both then around 60 years of age. Frieda was a recognized artist … Akron asked himself why these images are so immediately fascinating and he gives the answer that the reason is not only Frieda Harris' high artistic qualifications but also her schooling in and use of Rudolf Steiner's philosophical concept of projective geometry for their dispositions … “

http://www.manteia-online.dk/bookreviews/br105.htm

What do you think of these http://millvalleymasons.com/lady-freida-harris.htm ?

also see http://www.tarotforum.net/archive/index.php/t-39077.html

 

[Zephyros]

In the case of Harris's training, I would say she has a touch of the Ringo syndrome. Ringo Starr is not a great virtuoso, he does not have what it takes to make a star solo drummer. However, he was uniquely suited to be the Beatles' drummer because he is amazing at allowing the music to talk while the drums, and the drummer, support it. In that field, he excels, and there are few drummers who can match him in that capacity. His timing is impeccable, his comprehension in understanding a song and applying rhythm to it is is sublime.

Frieda Harris was trained, but I can see why this sort of criticism is leveled at her, especially in cards like the Prince of Swords, for example. For long I detested this card, as it seemed unfinished and unpolished. Then I studied it, and found out that was exactly what it was supposed to be like. When I look at the Thoth, my first thought is "Crowley," not "oh, I like how Frieda did this." Like Ringo, she was uniquely suited to the task at hand, which was conveying the ravings of an undisciplined madman (talking figuratively, I do know better than to say that). Her other paintings, non-Thoth related, actually show a far more disciplined hand, greater emphasis on technique and a lot more accuracy.

This isn't to say I think the Thoth sloppy; I do vehemently disagree with the criticism leveled at her by the OP, but I can understand where it is coming from.

 

[Kingdubrock]

Raven,
Your (what appears to me to be a) "If you can do better, show me!" approach is understandable, but not necessary for this discussion. Like Closrapexa, you don't have to agree with me. But at least Closrapexa can understand where it is coming from, while vehement in his/her disagreement. If you don't or can't relate to my perception, thats fine, but it's not so much a debate I was looking for as to FH's skill, as much as a discussion of the role of art and crafts-person-ship in this tradition. In other words, why were excellent writers involved in the GD but not visual artists? Conversely many of the great artists in the heyday of the Theosophists were involved in that group. (And at the risk of attracting yet more ire, it doesnt seem like the situation has changed much from the other decks I mentioned). But considering your point that they head-hunted outside of the order and FH was their third choice, the outcome, as you say, was a blessing and certainly, infinitely better than not having it done at all.

 

[Kingdubrock]

Closrapexa,

Thank you for your comments. From your post, I am now curious to see her non-tarot work. Your point about her ability to convey the ravings of a "madman" are well taken. Its quite possible very few if any commissioned artists of the day would have the eye and fortitude to make it all the way through. ;-)

The Ringo example is a good one as well. Its a bit like BB King too. He wasnt necessarily virtuosic but he could get more blues out of a single bent note than others can ever accomplish.


Somewhat along the lines of my original post and actual question, another example occurred to me. Chogyam Trungpa. Another "madman" (and I mean that the same way you did re Crowley) embedded art, flower arrangement, photography, writing, dance, jewelry making etc directly into his teachings and training system. He saw the need and importance of it, both from the perspective of communicating and chronicling the teachings, but also because of its basic function in the development, psychology and aspirations of the "sane" human being and society. In order for someone to truly integrate and live the teachings, they must bring it to bear on all important aspects of their life and culture. Art and communications are an important dimension of that, and when you develop a craft or trade in tandem with your spiritual training, they inform and express each other and reflect the state of the individual. Beyond art, he also took up issues of leadership, discipline, bravery, business, management and so on as AN if not THE ideal vehicle for training.

Yet ultimately, he taught Buddhism and Tantra. No separation.

Kind of thing.
Anyway, not trying to piss anyone off here. We can let this drop if thats best.

 

[Zephyros]

No one is pissed off...

It is curious that in the Golden Dawn Wikipedia article's list of members, although by no means exhaustive, has only Pamela Coleman Smith listed as an artist.

Recently I asked a question in the GD forum about the complete absence of any remaining decks by original members. The consensus seemed to be that few, if any, were any good in a visual sense, and that in any case only few members would have reached high enough grades to actually make a deck. I think ravenest has got it right that there weren't the resources or even that much of an inclination to produce true pieces of art. I wouldn't be surprised if the original temples were crude enough to be seen as almost strange by today's standards, where nothing has to made and everything can easily be bought.

ravenest linked to a few of her other pictures, tracing boards for use in temple ritual (if I'm not mistaken, I'm not too sure what tracing boards actually are). They show great similarity with the Thoth artwork, although they are very different in spirit.

 

[ravenest]

Don't be so sensitive

I guess I wont get answers to my questions then.

did you read the link to the other threads here and look at the link I posted to her other work?

I do understand your issues though ... I worked in (ran) an hermetic / Thelemic group for years and helped oversee the national body of one in regard to regulation of rites, regalia, temple furniture etc. "Where are the artists, the carpenters, the interior decorators, the tailors ??? " Nationally, we had one good , trained artist. I had a member who was a tailor.

Locally I had to do most of it myself. That's a lot of hats.

Maybe an intellectually based systems (if it is ?) like G.D. back then attracted more writers than artists? Or maybe, even, greater progression in mysticism is from within the artistic circles themselves and not from 'mystical circles' (in the west) that try to bring in artists?

Edit: What I mean is, in the greater population ... paradigm and mind-set. eg. 'The Romantics' flooded (heralded, created ?) a new wave of mysticism through society generally, maybe more than any occult movement ?

That is what gives me my magical artists fix ... tarot gives me a different one ... but I am not opposed to a 'speed-ball' ( i.e. a potent mix). Hmmm, I am getting an idea for a Tarot deck by collating already done great art that represents the major archetypes (as some art seems to) ....