Italian decks

sapienza

Moonbow* said:
Can we talk about the Italian decks, in particular the Soprafino, Ancient Italian, the Lombardy and any others? I would like to get more familiar with these decks, compare a few and study them for a bit. I know some people here love the Italian decks, which ones do you have, read with (and how do you read with them), and study?
Click to expand...

I absolutely love these decks :) My personal favourite is the Ancient Italian. I know the Soprafino is much finer, but I prefer the softness of the Ancient Italian and I think the figures have much more expressive, kinder faces. This is my primary deck and the one I'd use if I did a reading for anyone.

I also recently obtained the Ancient Tarot of Bologna, which I found interesting as I understand it's the deck on which the Soprafino was based, and it's been wonderful to compare the two. Another gem I picked up recently (thanks to Le Fanu's enabling) was the Genovese (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/genovese/).

I'd love to read more discussion about these decks, especially the history. Thanks for starting the thread Moonbow :)


ETA...I've always found it odd that these decks are discussed so infrequently compared to the Marseille decks. I know the Marseille pattern has great historical significance, but the Italian decks are just SO much more beautiful..... in my opinion of course ;) :D
 

Moonbow

Oh excellent! I've just returned from a day out and have some reading to do now. :) Thanks for the links. I didn't know about the Genovese or that the Soprafino was based on the Bologna (should that be Bolognese, ie Mitelli)?

Bee, that's a great site!

I'll read more tomorrow as its late here, but I'm happy to see more interest in looking at these cards.
 

Le Fanu

Moonbow* said:
(should that be Bolognese, ie Mitelli)?
Click to expand...

I don't think the two are related. I think the Mitelli is in a class of its own.

This is by Giacomo Zoni (1780). I also know very little else...

There is - however - this thread. And also this thread...

I have a beautiful Bolognese deck which I found in a shop in Barcelona which was a reproduction of a bolognese deck. Very small, very delicate and a Ltd edition reproduction of a Bolognese deck in the Fournier museum. One of these days I shall post scans. It's a bit like the LoS one but a little bit more delicate and refined...
 

ihcoyc

That Ancient Tarot of Bologna is a nice deck. It seems fairly obviously derived from a Marseille deck - the titles, after all, are in French. But already you see the tendencies that led to the making of the various engraved decks. They have attempted to re-introduce perspective into the wheels of the Chariot, for instance - even if it seems that those tiny horses could never pull that huge cart. The Bateleur and the Valet of Batons have a lot of sympathetic character.
 

Moonbow

Le Fanu said:
I don't think the two are related. I think the Mitelli is in a class of its own.

This is by Giacomo Zoni (1780). I also know very little else...
Click to expand...

No they aren't related Le Fanu, and I was questioning whether it was the Bologna or the Bolognese that sapienza was saying the Soprafino is related to. I've never heard of such a relation before.

The Bologna is the Lo Scarabeo marseilles-type deck. The Bolognese is Mitelli's version of the Tarocco Bolognese card game that is still played today and still available from Dal Negro and Modiano.
 

prudence

Il Meneghello also puts out a version of the Zoni Bologna, I love it, gorgeous cardstock and it has the look and feel of an antique.
 

Le Fanu

prudence said:
Il Meneghello also puts out a version of the Zoni Bologna, I love it, gorgeous cardstock and it has the look and feel of an antique.
Click to expand...

But is it the same? Ive looked at very few scans of the Meneghello deck and it seems different to the LoS Ancient Tarot of Bologna...
 

Alan Ross

Moonbow* said:
No they aren't related Le Fanu, and I was questioning whether it was the Bologna or the Bolognese that sapienza was saying the Soprafino is related to. I've never heard of such a relation before.
Click to expand...

It's my understanding that the Soprafino and it's various clones are a part of the same lineage as the Ancient Tarot of Bologna. They are both a part of the Lombardy pattern as seen in this chart:

http://www.tarothermit.com/lineage.htm

The chart shows a gap of about a century for the Milan/Lombardy region during which there was virtually no tarot production. During that time, the region was under the rule of the religiously strict Spanish Habsburgs, who discouraged gambling, including the manufacture of playing cards. Eventually, rule passed to the more liberal Austrian Habsburgs and tarot was reintroduced into the region. Marseille decks were imported into the region and soon, homegrown versions of the Marseille were being manufactured in Italy to fill the growing demand.

The Ancient Tarot of Bologna is an example of one of the these homegrown Italian Marseille clones that was manufactured for export to the Lombardy region. What is confusing is that Bologna has its own distinctive tarot tradition (also shown on the chart) that is unrelated to the Zoni Marseille clone that was being manufactured in Bologna. During the 19 Century, the Lombardis grew more creative with their designs, especially with luxury decks like the Soprafino, but these decks were still an evolution of the Marseille (although with other influences as well), rather than being primarily based on the Lombardy tradition that existed before the Spanish occupation. So this is how the Ancient Tarot of Bologna and the Soprafino are related. There is info on this here:

http://www.tarothermit.com/milanese.htm

Alan
 

Bernice

Thank you Alan. That first link = I love diagrams!

I've actually got bookmarked Tarot-of-the-Hermit pages in a separate Folder - I skipped right past it when looking for good links :rolleyes:

I recognised the pages straight away....... great site.

Bee :)
 
Minchiate elements Camoin Tarot Symbols In Various Cards