A different take on the Swords

[AlexTM]

Hi!
For quite a while now, I have not particularly happy with the Waite- or RWS-based interpretation of the minors; I understand why the images were revolutionary, but by now I find them extremely limiting, too.

So I sat down and tried to work myself through a common set of meanings for the minors, well, the number-and-suit approach. I thought it would help to make up a storyline as an example for each suit to understand how the energy of the suit progresses. Here's my take on the Swords:

1. The idea - let's take the idea somebody has on how a new type of engine could work.
2. Exploring the possibilites. Like: Where could it best be used? A ship's engine? A pocket ventilator?
3. First decisions that have to be made. Like: Where will the energy come from? Fuel? Electricity? Something else entirely?
4. Doing the first test in the workshop. The first thing you can actually touch.
5. Things that don't work turn up - maybe the material used is the wrong one after all.
6. The problem is found, and the tests run smoothly.
7. Here somebody makes a mistake, but when they try to fix it, they find a better solution to another problem, too. A blessing in disguise.
8. Now all the loose theoretical ends are tied up - one knows how it will work.
9. The first prototype.
10. The engine goes into production.

Now, of course this is a far more optimistic take on the swords than Waite/Smith had, but I am not so sure that the swords themselfes are the problem. The swords are, however, more prone to be abused than the other suits. Think of atomic bombs. Not only are they, by themselfes, a working system, without their development we would also not have had quite a few other rather useful things. Using them, however, is an exceptionally bad idea. The aforementioned engine could drive an ambulance or a tank. There is a reason why the proverbial "Two-edged sword" is a sword and not, say, a cup or a wand (or anything that could be connected to or interpreted as such).

Let me know what you think.

Greetings from Cologne,
Alex

 

[AlexTM]

Of course, at each of these points the progress can be stopped or greatly hindered.

1. The idea - if it never occurs, the rest of the story never happens.
2. Exploring the possibilites. Only one does not see any, or, more likely, can absolutely not decide which one to explore.
3. First decisions that have to be made. Unfortunately, the ones made are the wrong ones.
4. Doing the first test in the workshop. The first thing you can actually touch. It doesn't work, though.
5. Things that don't work turn up. This one already is negative, but maybe the problems are so big that the project is abandoned altogether.
6. The problem is found. This one in turn is hard to negate, but maybe the energy keeps regressing to five and problems keep turning up.
7. Here somebody makes a mistake, but they cannot fix it, or when they try to fix it, they find out that the whole concept cannot work after all - maybe because of the human factor
8. Now all the loose theoretical ends are tied up. Unfortunately, they predict far more problems in the future.
9. The first prototype. Which doesn't work.
10. The engine could go into production - only it's indended application doesn't exist any more, and the whole work was done in vain.

Let me know what you think.

Greetings from Cologne,
Alex

 

[mtnmermaid]

It seems like it fits the wands more than the swords to me, I guess because to me wands are creativity, the ace of wands is the creative spark/idea and the rest of the suit is what happens to it, how to develop it, whereas swords for me are the power of the mind as intellect, words, thoughts, communciation and not as creative ideas. The wand king and queen are the creative fireballs to me, not the swords king and queen, they're the intellectuals, the smooth communicators.

The ace of swords always seems to me like a powerful tool, if you don't like swords, maybe a pen since "the pen is mightier than the sword," etc. Words can cut as harshly as blades, or think of kitchen knives or scalpels, both used to create/heal and both excellent murder weapons too right? Whatever the image, it can be used to hurt or to heal and the use depends on the intentions of the user. To me that's why the swords have so much ambivalence, because our intentions aren't always very clear.

 

[AlexTM]

Actually I was considering a new, say, literary theory as an example as well, but decided on something more "steely"; also, I guessed that more people can follow the making of an engine than the way an academic theory makes it into the world. I wanted very accessible examples.

As for creativity, well, yes, that task too needs it, but I do not think in the same way one paints a picture. Also, I see the wands as a suit not only of creativity, but of will, too. Which would not quite fit so well, I think -- although of course, in the end, all suits connect somewhere. As an example of Wands I am thinking more along the line of somebody getting something they really want. Although your comment on creativity gave me the idea of somebody creating a statue ... gotta expore that one.

Greetings from Cologne,
Alex

 

[mtnmermaid]

Oh, an academic theory, ok, now I got it! I don't relate to engines but I can relate to academia. Aha. Makes much more sense now.

 

[poivre]

I understand your way of meanings with the swords,
find them smoother.
I just can't get over them being negative in a reading.

I may find a way to read them in a positive way but
after the reading I look to see how many swords are shown.

Swords are words and they make a clear cut,
if you like it or not.

I wish they were not so harsh.

Just my 2 cents

 

[tarobones]

Spiritual Tarot

In the book "Spiritual Tarot" by Echols, Mueller, and Thomson, the chapter on the Swords is entitled "Fighting Illusion". I think that's a good description of the suit. They're two edged, and as the authors teach, "Will you focus on the problem or the opportunity?" It seems that's the choice the Swords present to us. I have come to appreciate the suit much more than before, and no longer view them as negative, but certainly as challenging. Just my 2 cents. BB, Michael

 

[mythos]

I certainly get where you are coming from Alex. Since I recently began working with the Marseille, I find the Waite deck too confining. However, I am inclined to attribute ideas to wands also.

I remember, some years back, a friend putting it like this: Wands are ideas ... the 'Ah ha!' moments, the 'Oh wow' what a great idea I just had. ... the flashbulb going off ... the intuitive solution that comes when you stop thinking.

Okay, so you have the great idea, and then comes the Cups. Emotions. Let's say you 'feel' good about it, this gives you the movitation and desire to move to the next step.

Swords - you think about it ... how can I make this happen, what do I need to do, you communicate it to others, and they discuss it, argue with you about it, some conflict arises, you have to re-think, and re-assess maybe .... but, you decide to go ahead.

Pentacles/Coins - you plant the seed, do the work, make it actually happen in the real world, you manifest your original idea.

Have I carried this through by exploring the 10 cards in each suit as a process which leads through the suits, or grinds to a halt? ... Nah! That is where your idea comes in. Good one too ... I just wouldn't use swords for ideas ... that's all. Doesn't mean that your system won't work. In the example you used, it did work. I guess we just learn things along the way ... some strike us as meaningful, and the rest we forget. This explanation of the process through the suits, which I was given, has stuck with me, so I am sharing it. Try it on, or toss it in the bin.

Greetings to Alex in Cologne, from mythos in melbourne

 

[AlexTM]

That's very interesting ... because your take on the swords would be quite close to my take on the wands. I see swords as Words, and wands as Will. Let me explain a bit further:

Swords are the intellectual suit, what you can think through. Wands are the "power" suite, what you can push through. Hence building the new engine is swords, while pushing it through into a market with a few competitors who don't want it there is wands. Marx is swords, Lenin wands. The people who worked on the Manhatten Project were swords, the politicians and military people who decided it would be build and used wands. And so on.

Think of art: There is art that is done with a mathematical precision, think of M.C.Escher . (Well, he was a mathematician, too.) Then think of somebody like Vincent van Gogh in contrast. I would place the former firmly in the realm of swords, and the latter firmly in the realm of wands. Then think of somebody like Michelangelo: On the one hand, many of his works are meticulously composed, which is a sword component. (And doing architecture without a strong sword influence ... well, I would not want to be under such a roof.) But then the images he created, and often, the oppositions he fought, are sure a wand thing. Ever seen The Agony and the Ecstasy, a movie about his painting the Sistine Chapel? Wands all over the place, despite some sharp thinking there as well.

Now, as for the "two-edged swords" some refered to – I absolutely concur. Ever seen a psychotic's theory, or "just" a decent conspiracy theory? Internally, they are usually absolutely consistent, thought through to the last little bit. It is just when you look at them from the outside they look thoroughly mad. (To a lesser degree, that is even true of most -isms as well.) Not that outside opinions matter – they are part of the theory. Often, outside opposition even proves the theory right. Hence, while I thoroughly dislike the extremely negative RWS take on the swords suit, I do concur that you can absolutely manouver yourself into that corner with nothing but quite logical and, seen just by themselfes, rational thoughs.
I know a friend who did that; in the end he had to move a few hundred miles away and leave all that literally behind him what had triggered all those thoughts. (Thanks god, it worked.) But while he was here, I was fighting swords with swords, going through those throughts of his in the same rational manner with which he thought them up. There was just not enough strenght in him, no spark of wands, to get rid of them completely, for quite a while.
Think of anybody addicted to drugs: They may know very well how unhealthy it is what they do, but with knowledge alone they do not manage to get out there, usually. It does take the willpower as well, which is, unfortunately, not inherent to the intellect, but a seperate feature. (If it were, depression would not be such a big problem, either. Or anxiety.)

Oh my, this is turning into a rant. Don't think I want to roll my opinion over you with a steamroller, I am just not partiularly known for my short takes on things. It's just my take, and I do value your input on them.
Mythos, I also like your idea on how the four suits come together to make something happen -- food for another take on a walk through the suits, this time, all four of them togehter. Might be an interesting collaboartive effort, too, wouldn't it?

Greetings from Cologne to whatever place somebody is reading this
Alex

 

[mythos]

That's very interesting ... because your take on the swords would be quite close to my take on the wands. I see swords as Words, and wands as Will. Let me explain a bit further:

Swords are the intellectual suit, what you can think through. Wands are the "power" suite, what you can push through.

Think of art: There is art that is done with a mathematical precision, think of M.C.Escher . (Well, he was a mathematician, too.) Then think of somebody like Vincent van Gogh in contrast. I would place the former firmly in the realm of swords, and the latter firmly in the realm of wands.

Mythos, I also like your idea on how the four suits come together to make something happen -- food for another take on a walk through the suits, this time, all four of them togehter. Might be an interesting collaboartive effort, too, wouldn't it?

Greetings from Cologne to whatever place somebody is reading this
Alex

Greetings from melbourne Alex,

Drats ... I always leave out the notion of 'will' in my mental picture of the cards, which is probably why I have trouble connecting with the wands and the Chariot. Mind you, if my free will was questioned by someone telling me I couldn't do something, I would just go ahead and do it. For me, though that would not be an act of will in the sense of proving my free will to act, it would be because I am an independent person who's largely unaffected by other's strictures. This is, of course, easy to say in a country in which my free will is not hampered. But that is a whole bigger issue ... and I am known to for my long answers. I won't go into it.

Though there are many people in my life who would say ... yes, but you have achieved this or that, that takes willpower ... for me the notion of will hasn't entered into the equation because I have never actually done anything that I didn't want to do. I need to remember the old saying 'Where there is a will, there is a way". My life is a mirror of that in many ways, but my cognitive understanding hasn't grasped it in terms of volition.... and I need to.

Yep ... I see that wands and swords can appear to be conceptually similar and yet different at the same time. I tend to have a handle on swords (oh bad unintended pun there!), both in their negative and positive connotations, because I am a 'thinker' and 'communicator', but I am not much of an 'actor' on my throughts. I guess that is where the notion of 'will' comes in, as well as motivation and desire (cups) and passion (wands?). This is indeed an interesting discussion.

While I definitely see your Escher attribution .... love him, I tend to see Van Gogh more as a Cups artist ... so much feeling and emotion. In spite of my own painting, I have never really thought about different artists in terms of tarot before. It would be an interesting excercise. Mind you, I rarely look at real artists work ... primarily because I don't want to be influenced, but also because my opinion of my own work plummets into my boots. Because I need my art for a whole variety of reasons that have little to do with the notion of being an 'artist', and much to do with mental health .... I can do without the plummetting. Of course I could paint my boots ... hah! humour! No .... not humour ... I have a spare pair of boots ... and I will to it.

I agree, a wander through the suits could indeed be an interesting collaborative effort. Of course, we'd need to find agreement on the wands-swords issue first! Avtually we do have agreement on the essential concept, but our ways of expressing that is at variance. Mythos's mind is in excitement mode here!

Time for me to explore the issue of 'will' further ... see how it operates in my life, and what misconceptions I hold about it. Ah ... insight!!!!!!! I won't go into details. I won't bore you with the details of my psychological insights into myself.

Wasn't it Adler who wrote "The Will to Power"? Hmmm! time to dig through my old psych books again.

mythos