A different take on the Swords

[AlexTM]

Will ... will ... Nietzsche might be able to offer a bin in that department, too, methinks

(Anything which) is a living and not a dying body... will have to be an incarnate will to power, it will strive to grow, spread, seize, become predominant — not from any morality or immorality but because it is living and because life simply is will to power. — Beyond Good and Evil s.259, Walter Kaufmann translation.

Now, one doesn't have to agree with Nitzsche, but he sure makes for a most interesting read.

I also consider, on a personal level, will to be quite different from words, because, well, I have lots of the latter, but lack the former to an alarming degree. (Another reason astrology and me don't mix - according to my horoscope, I am lacking in the air department, but fire's fine. Yeah, right.) You know, I can hold a speech on a subject, or write a rather long and thorough paper at a moment's notice (well, providing I have a decent idea about it), but it sometimes takes me two days to get myself out of the door, shopping for food I need.

Of course, if you attribute motivation to the cups – well, I would put that more in the realm of wands as well. Depends, of course – if it is love you are missing, as an example, that is a cups thing. If you decide to fight for that person because you love (want) them, that is wands. Which reminds me of van Gogh – of course there is also a strong cups component there; I was thinking about the difference between wands and swords only. And all those firey yellows probably pointed me towards him as well as an example.

Mind you, these are my takes on the suits, but I do find yours very interesting as well. Maybe they are even better than mine, or a mixture of both would be even better than every single effort. Oh, of course other people's input is gladly recieved as well.

Thinking ... thinking ... nope, can't get together even a draft for a wants "storyline" at the moment. Will keep trying, though.

Greetings from Cologne, especially to Melbourne
Alex

 

[mythos]

Synchronicity must be at work Alex, because a second-hand copy of Nietzsche's 'Thus Spake Zarathustra' arrived today in the mail. I have a sneaking feeling that we are talking about exactly the same things, attributing them the same way, but good old language is creating the confusion. I remember teaching communication skills and explaining that one person formulates a thought, converts it into language, which has all kinds of personal meanings for them besides the agreed upon meanings, then speaks. The receiver then hears the words, with all their own personal and often different associations, converts them into thought, and formulates an answer ... etc. The communication not only actually takes place in the space between the two people but it is coloured be all kinds of personal, social, cultural and so on, associations ... and that is before we even begin to consider all the non-verbal stuff. Sheesh! It is amazing that we human-being can even begin to function verbally.

I relate well to your 'think about, write about, speak about ... but not take action extremely well' situation. If my house was as clean as my thinking about doing the cleaning work dictates, I wouldn't live in the pig sty which I call home. I can think about it all day. I can visualise doing it. I know how to do it. I have done it in the past, but, the getting up and doing it? Nah! The only reason why I have food in my house is that I take my mother shopping each week. I'd be living off stale couscous, pasta and rice otherwise.

I think that the reason that I put motivation with cups (and I can clearly see why you would put it with wands) is that I have to desire something enough -- really care about it - to be motivated to act. I do not desire a clean house. I don't really care about it enough .... I prefer no visitors .... I am a hermit. But yes ... desire can be 'want' and thus wands.

I guess that, when it comes down to it, separating the elements isn't really possible. They overlap so much. To see the figure on the 9 of swords (RWS), for example, you could attribute it with over-thinking, but there is also anguish and deep emotional pain - so many other feelings.

And with Van Gogh ... yes, he had so much drive to create ... tremendous fiery creative energy, mixed with tremendous feeling. Fascinating discussion.

I'm soon to finish an appalling book by Tracey Porter - The Tarot Companion ... which I am determined to finished because I paid good money for it. I am half-way through the Tao of Physics ... which I am loving. Then ... Nietszche is next!!!!

mythos the messiest maid in melbourne

 

[AlexTM]

I've gotta have to have a conversation with my mother, it seem – I have a seperated-at-birth twin living in Melbourne and I never knew!
And don't worry about the house! I have a set of firm rules about whether a house is inhabitable still or not: 1. If it does not yet smell decayed (and that is a smell you notice!), 2. if you have a reasonable chance of knowing where things you are looking for might be (ability to reach them without moving tons of stuff is explicitly not included ) and 3. if you do not find things larger than, say, a book, which you never knew you actually owned, more than once a week, the house is still inhabitable. Take that from a guy who needed three weeks to decided how to best wash his curtains. But at least they were thoroughly cleaned

As for communication, yes, that is tricky. I once spoke two hours with a guy about how we both grew up, to a large part, with our grandmothers, with all the fuzzy warm feelings in my belly about her. She was one of the best things that ever happened to me. Took that long to find out that his was about the worst thing that had ever happned to him. Ops ... The trick with communicating is of course to make sure you communicate long enough to get to an agreement, and one that is based on common understanding. Of course, there are people out there who don't really want that – those are the people I tend to get lost with completely

I also thoroughy agree that you cannot seperate the elements, in the end – the person who invented the engine above also needed to want to build it, and ey needed to feel positive enough about it to pull through the 5 and the 7, as well. In the storyline I drew up about the cups, which is "Building a house", the person both needed to want a new house and to think through quite a lot of things, as well. And so on. But well, an example is something that makes it easier to think things through, an application of an idea and not, be definition, the idea itself. (My, I am being platonic these days.) So we have to once again live with limitations, just as the energy of the aces is by necessity diluted and mixed with others and brought into one form to the exclusion of all others. Still, without that, we'd live in a world where nothing but raw potential existed – and I think the last time the world was like that was right before the Big Bang. Interesting time to be around, sure, but no internet back then

BTW, RWS 9 of swords reminds me - that was, I think, the first card (or at least one of the first) where I just could not get my head around to agree with the "established" meanings - and that was before I knew that thinking on your own was allowed, too. To me, that was always "waking up from a nightmare" which is a good thing, I would say. RWS 10, since I am in the vincinity, was always either "Overkill" or "Hysteria" to me; either ripping something or somebody to shreds who already died a while ago, or working oneself up to the thorough conviction that one is the innocent one just being ripped up by all those mean people out there. Which, btw, goes well with Crowley's "reason run mad", but which is not exactly the only way of interpreting a 10 of Swords, I would say.

Greetings from sunny Cologne to Melbourne!
Alex
(searching for his Zarathustra right now)

 

[Sophie]

I've just read this thread...I really like your idea (your Ace of Swords!) Alex. Yes, of course, swords are the mind, what is born in the mind. Your progression makes sense, and the "double-edged" element gives us both the positive and the negative interpretations.

I know what people have said about wands representing ideas. I don't think that's correct. Wands, more accurately, would be inspirations - the gut feeling that gives us energy. They are also, of course, lust.

But ideas are different things - ideas take the inspiration and work them out intellectually, with all the discrimination and sorting that involves. That's the job of Swords. They also allow for perception, which an inspiration would not. Ideas can be very complex: if you think of how Kant developed his ideas on cognitive thought (to stay on-topic ), then you can assume he had a a mixture of Sword and Wand moments, but more Swords than Wands. So for instance, the difference between the Ace of Wands & the Ace of Swords would be the difference between the flash of inspiration & the flash of understanding (or the tug of lust and the idea to seduce that gorgeous guy)

In practice, of course, we live as though all this wove seamlessly together.

One day, some bright tarot-reading biologist (a King or Queen of Swords) will give us correspondences between the parts of the brain and the tarot suits...

 

[wizzle]

Swords as rites of initiation

I've been thinking about the suit of swords for a long time and also think the associations need some expansion, particularly in light of the work that's been done on mental states since the RWS came out. So my 2 cents tries to incorporate what I know about the mental processes.

But first, I'd like to state that I tend to think of the 4 suits in terms of the 4 worlds and the "work" that has to be done in those worlds. This viewpoint came about largely as a result of my study of the qabala. In looking at a suit, we can "flow" down the suit, from Ace to 10 or "drive" up the suit from 10 to Ace. This should give us two slightly different takes on the suit. If you drive up, the Ace becomes a culmination, a Kether, an enfolding of the suit and the embodiment of the "work" of the suit. For me that work in the Swords is initiation metaphysically and mastering mental states from the mundane standpoint. Intitiation, in itself, is both a physical and mental process. You can see the physical initiation process in the images of the cards (which I'll discuss card by card below). I think most of the classic interpretations tend to flow from Ace to 10 so I'll try to provide some interpretations from the driving up standpoint.

10 - All 10's are caught in some way or other in matter and the physical plane. In the swords this "pinning" of thought to earth produces our individual paradigm set, which is absolutely necessary for us to function. For those not familiar with what the paradigm set does, it essentially filters information in a pre-determined way based on our physical brain and conditioning, particularly early conditioning. We need this filtering because we can't possibly process, at the conscious level, all of the information that comes at us. So we develop this filtration system in order to be able to act on the information. If we didn't have it, we'd be spending all of our time parsing the information and trying to figure out what is important and what we don't need to "know" to act. This is an almost automatic mental process, which is why paradigm shifts are so difficult.

9 - The 9 very nicely shows what happens if we shift the paradigm set even a little. We suddenly realize that what we viewed as "absolute truth" isn't absolute at all. This is a very upsetting thing to realize, for the most part and may actually result in a Tower moment for some. It is the nightmare it is pictured to be. In addition, this card shows the dawning realization of various mental states and that, perhaps, not everyone sees things as we do. If you go through a Tower moment, you've received an initiation into a larger world of thought on a metaphysical level. On a mundane level, you may be asked to think differently because you've been inducted into a religion, fraternity, etc.

8 - This card represents our more consciously held beliefs. These include things like religion, gender roles, the best way to bake a cake, etc. They are binding, but self-imposed to a large degree and are much easier to "untie" than the paradigm set. They are bound to us because we identify with them and any assult on these beliefs will be met with a response as though the assault were on our physical person. This is generally what is thought of as the ego or our individuality. Ego is a mental state.... I think therefore I am. While in the 9, the object is to think somewhat differently, here the intiation is aimed toward the acceptance of ideas/beliefs without question. This is a useful state while we are building up our own belief system. On a physical level, this is the first stage of initiation and learning where you are bound to listen to a teacher or guru.

7 - Here I think we have borrowed or even "stolen" beliefs/thoughts. Picture this as a teen, perhaps, who is going out into the world and tries out the ideas of some of his peers. I'm still thinking on this one in terms of initiation.

6 - This is clearly the analytical or scientific viewpoint. In this card we learn to be objective, which is probably why it is not such a terror in a reading. Some degree of real balance has come into the mental processes which previously were rather immature. The ideas, previously borrowed, have been culled and are beginning to be used in a more discriminating way. Indeed, discrimination could be the best key word for this card along with it's traditional title of Lord of Earned Success, which is generally shortened to Science.

5 - Smug. What can I say but smug. This is the state of "I know it all" so familiar in those in their late teens/early 20's and it's why we parents want to smack the kiddie upside the head. The initiate truly believes he's terribly clever and will take on all comers in verbal/mental battles. In this card he vigorously exercises the objective viewpoint gained in the 6. The traditional title of this card is the Lord of Defeat. Without the initiation of defeat, there will be no progress because we've culminated on the intellectual/mundane plane as happens in all 5's, which belong to the great teacher and initiator, the Hierophant.

(to be continuted)

 

[mythos]

Wow Wizzle .... you have just blown my brains all over the walls. This, by the way, is a good thing .... I had never thought about the cards in the reverse order. This is such an excellent take on them. I have been so busy being caught up in the 'why' of the attribution of the Majors moving down the tree into Malkuth, rather than in the reverse direction, that I hadn't even begun to question the re-visioning of the minors from 10 to Ace. I had just accepted it. I'm impressed! and, can't wait for part two.

mythos

 

[wizzle]

Blame Mythos

Having been undeservedly flattered by Mythos, I will maunder on with my thoughts on the swords. Before I begin with each card, I'd like to respond to a comment Helvetica made where she said (paraphrasing) that she felt the swords were ideas. I have a different view and it's certainly a fine line type of distinction. I believe ideas, intuition, the divine spark as it were, is in the suit of wands. This divine spark can get transferred to the suit of swords as an idea or intuition, where it will then be processed and fleshed out by our mental processes. The two suits work together to produce a material result in the suit of pentacles (as inspired by the suit of cups), but the thrust/impulse comes out of the element of fire. Air waves it's magic wand to enlarge the thrust or wields the sword to cut down when required, but I don't believe you can sit down and say to yourself, "I will think of a great new idea today." You can only push around existing ideas or put them together with swords.

And now to continue pushing upward in the suit.

4 - This is the card that got me thinking about swords as depicting initiation, based on some of the comments made in Firemaiden's wonderful thread on the 4. The Knight is shown in prayer which is the initiation of the mind/thought into a higher level of thinking. Prayer, meditation, etc. move our minds out of the purely rational type of thinking we perfected in the 5 & 6 and show us a different type of thinking. It is not always easy to accept that we can't solve all of our issues with the cutting blade of our conscious rational minds. So this is an initiation/mode of thought which takes time, patience and practice. It also takes a degree of acceptance which is why, I believe, RWS shows this image in a church. Many people get through life or want to get through life by using only the left or rational part of their brain. The entire concept of prayer/meditation seems silly to some, which is why I think this is a card of very significant initiation and is high up the tree of life.

3 - This disturbing image becomes very clear if we continue with our initiation concept and hearken back to the 8 of swords. Here we have the heart pierced by swords because the 3's are always associated with Binah/Empress and the act of love/selflessness. The initiation is that of letting go of the ego we held so tightly in the 8. And this is a toughy, indeed. But true love, real love, doesn't ask "what's in it for me?" That's the ego talking. Love just is given. Period. It is the mind/swords/ego that holds us back from love in it's many forms. The mind wants a quid pro quo and the initiation in this card is to get past that state of mind. This is also a card that requires the surrender of the rational mind as overlord of our destiny. That doesn't mean we should not use the rational mind, it means we have to give up the idea that by thinking we can find the best solution to problems/issues. This is largely due to the fact that the best solution may not be a self-centered one or it might be a solution that requires a perspective we don't have from the point of rational consciousness.

2 - The blindfolded lady in a white dress shows the balance of the rational and meditative mind. BTW, the state of meditation brings down the brainwaves from the 20 per second, which are normal in the conscious state, to 10 or less during meditation, often referred to as the alpha state of mind. Clearly, the issue here is to close our rational eyes and trust in the state of consciousness made available though meditation. Note well that we can't get here unless we are willing to let go, as required by the 3. Note too that we are not required to surrender the rational mind, as shown by 2 swords, but to balance the two mental states, allowing the alpha state to take the lead. Since the 2's are associated with Chockma, Wisdom, this is the way to make a wise decision. The initiation, then, is into the wisdom of the Father, another symbol for Chockma.

Ace - The Ace is the culmination of the drive up the Tree of Life. All of the mental processes/initiations have been mastered. I believe this is why, in some texts, the Ace is shown as containing the entire suit. Thus, when we get an ace, we have any of the methods of thinking I've discussed potentially available.

For me, this way of viewing the swords helps me think of the positive aspects of the suit. For example, let's say we get the 10 of swords somewhere in the spread. It could be interpreted to advice not doing a whole lot of thinking about the issue and instead using the present mode of thinking. Or it could mean a knee-jerk type of reaction, which may not necessarily be the wrong reaction, it's just coming out of the paradigm set the person has established.

This was a really interesting thread for me and I hope my comments were helpful.

 

[mythos]

It is not always easy to accept that we can't solve all of our issues with the cutting blade of our conscious rational minds.

This was a really interesting thread for me and I hope my comments were helpful.

Hehehehehe! Now I dare you, Wizzle, to write up the same process with the other suits!

What? You believe that I want to become some kind of alien information sucker, and get you to do all the work? Too bluddy right mate!

There is so much the think about here ... your wonderful wise work is definitely headed for my journal.

The four of swords comment, quoted above, reminded me immediately of the AA serenity prayer. Mind you, I can't remember what it is. Have to ask my 20+ years sober sister. It seems perfect for the card, and a whole new way of looking at it as well. Your take on the 3 of swords was so refreshing.

To Helvetica ... I have been thinking about the difference between idea and inspiration, and though I can see where you are coming from with air/thought/idea/swords ... in fact, it drove me nuts for a couple of years ... I think too much , Wizzle actually was able to articulate my thinking on it, in a way that I have not been able to verbalise. It's like ... Wow, flash ... what a great idea ... seems to come out of nowhere ... not as a result of a thought process. Thinking about it comes later.

This may be one of those situations where language is a difficulty. Your 'inspiration' is my 'idea' and vice versa.

To Alex ... my brain is still mush from these sinus headaches, but I am about the plunge into the world of Zarathustra. I know that I never got hooked by my Nietzsche Reader, but I think it is like those books that quote bits of Jung ... but you don't get the process behind it that contextualises the quotes, and gives them the 'whodunnit' factor that makes Jung so readable, when you bite the bullet and read entire books of his. You see the gradual building of the arguments, the presentation of theory and what he uses to support it. I suspect that Zarathustra will have the same impact ... I hope it does!

That is one of the things that worked so well with the way Wizzle has presented the swords. Time to dip back into my QBL again, I see, and apply it from 10 to Ace in the 4 worlds/suits. Fascinating topic all round.

Thanks for starting it Alex.

mythos