A My Readings Style Reading TdM

[Mallah]

I wanted to post this, to get more insight from TdM lovers, (I understand we can do that here).

It was actually a series of questions...sort of a diaglog with the cards. They ended up being arranged as follows:

**2*3**
1*****4
***5***
***6***

The meaning of each position was related to the question i asked. I didn't think any of them out in advance, just asked the next question that came to mind. I found the reading to be exceptionally profound.

The underlying issues are that for the past 6 months I have been rebuilding my life after the devastation of losing everything I owned, and having spent 10 years in another state. Part of that rebuilding has been the process of starting a Tarot Business, and re-launching my music business. Today I wanted to ask some big questions.

1. How valuable are my offerings to the community right now? Death.
I took this as being sort of a personal page turning, mirrored by a planetary shift/change in awareness/vibrating level. More and more people are making the shift from the old ways of doing things, and they need/will need guidance from Tarot and spiritually uplifting music. Plus, on the personal level, I NEED to do this as well. (My focus was rather on others, as I tend to get too focused on ME...how can I benefit from my business, when it should be how can OTHERS benefit from my services/offerings? Hence my question as originally stated. So while the card is pointing out the spiritual need of the planet/community right now, it's also pointing out MY shift, and my NEED to shift from viewing my business as valuable to ME, and focus on how it's valuable to THEM.

2. Wow. Ok...what else do I need to know? Papess. Wowie. Deep intuition, meditational wisdom. The old dying way, is the patriarchy. The feminine was forced to take on this disguise for many hundreds, thousands of years. The planet is awakening/shifting, as seen in the death card. My devotion to HER needs to be complete as she can guide me as the source of intuition and music. This is doing things the NEW way.

3. Ok...anything else I need to know? 5 of swords reversed. I was just talking about this card on AT TdM forum yesterday. I used it as an example. And this was the example I gave. You have set good verbal and mental boundaries about yourself as to what you are, who you are, what you will and will not do. (that's 4 of swords) Now the 5th sword comes in...challenging them. This particulary is coming from without...the current capitalistic/patriarchal system of supporting ourselves...not with heart and doing what we love (that's my new paradigm...those are the limits I've set up...I'm only doing what feels right to me...). It's shown as coming from without because of the handle turned away from me. BUT, it's also coming from me, because i have the trained response of thinking (swords) of things in the old ways. I need to knock it off, trust the universe, trust my inner power sources to "draw all things needful, spiritual and material" to quote BOTA. I need to maintain the boundaries (4) I have drawn (Swords) for my own piece of mind (swords). (The five shows the 1 set against the 4)

4. Ok, well what do i DO about it? King of Coins reversed. This card has come up for me in about every reading I've done this month. Here, i think it's patriarchal ways of making money...the job system. The banking system. The "look out for number one" system...the "career" system. And it's reversed. A visual representation of "what to do"...i.e. STOP DOING THAT SYSTEM. Yeh, I've never been too good at all that anyhow. Focus on power from within. Focus on offering my valuable services, the rest will take care of itself.

5. But then how do I make my way in this world...how do i meet my finanial obligations? (Here's a clincher card...and one I'd especially like some input on). The Lovers. First thin that popped into my mind was "do what you love, the money will follow". I have to make CHOICES to follow what I love (I've made that choice actually) and stop fretting about "making it work". I love Tarot. I love music. I love how they make me feel, and I love helping others feel that way. I think there's a real emphasis in the card on communication: making connection with people whom I can help and who can help me.

6. What ELSE can I do? 10 of swords, reversed. LOL. I just went over the top (10) with my question, and got the answer given in the 5 of swords, DOUBLED...sort of underlined for emphasis. So I go back and look at the 5 again...here's what I just said up there about what to DO: "I need to knock it off, trust the universe, trust my inner power sources to "draw all things needful, spiritual and material" to quote BOTA. I need to maintain the boundaries (4) I have drawn (Swords) for my own piece of mind (swords). (The five shows the 1 set against the 4)"


So there's my little TdM spread. What struck me was the qty of Majors. And that i pulled the 5 of swords rev when I was just talking about it yesterday, and i pulled the ol King of Pents again.

Input? Other Ideas? Especially about Lovers?
Thanks
Mallah

 

[le_charior]

Input? Other Ideas? Especially about Lovers?
Thanks
Mallah

Hello Mallah!

Good to see your reading, I like it a lot! It's late here already so I will post more detailled ideas tomorrow, but one thing i wanted to say on The Lovers: The person in the middle is yourself. The one coming from the left is sent by Trump XIII, the one on the right sent by the King of coins, they're their emissaries if you want. The whole spread mirrors the structure of this central card - and your answer is coming from above, the blind messenger is delivering it with his arrow not only into your brain, but also your heart - so The Popess and the 5 swords are the way to go for you.

What the cards actually mean to me in your context - this I will tell you tomorrow, after having slept over it - and I'll need to think about it - but I wanted to tell you how I see the structure of the reading. And I think it makes total sense to make up the spread as you go along!

Fascinating stuff, this reading. More tomorrow, have a good day and night!

L

 

[Mallah]

Oh, that's all REAL interesting, LC. Very good, very good. It's important to look at the way the energy flows from card to card. I think, because I turned them up one at a time, that i forgot to do that step...it'd have to be done at the end as part of another pass, because when you are turning them up one at a time, you don't see the overall till the end.

Looking forward to hearing your take. I'll spread them out again, and look at it from that angle.

Thanks a lot
Mallah.

 

[le_charior]

Good morning!

Here are my longer comments and my take on your cards. My "method" is quite different, I have to look at the cards and get the visual idea of the overal spread. It's all in the images and depends on the context for me.

I wanted to post this, to get more insight from TdM lovers, (I understand we can do that here).

It was actually a series of questions...sort of a diaglog with the cards. They ended up being arranged as follows:

**2*3**
1*****4
***5***
***6***

My reading of these cards might be influenced a bit by the Tirage en Croix spread I just did with Flaxen in the exchange, with doubled upper and lower position. This binds in quite smoothly with your questions to the card. I looked at them not only for your business, but with a bit of a wider focus.

So I pulled out the cards in my Dodal and looked at them. It doesn't photograph great, but you get an idea:

The meaning of each position was related to the question i asked. I didn't think any of them out in advance, just asked the next question that came to mind. I found the reading to be exceptionally profound.

The underlying issues are that for the past 6 months I have been rebuilding my life after the devastation of losing everything I owned, and having spent 10 years in another state. Part of that rebuilding has been the process of starting a Tarot Business, and re-launching my music business. Today I wanted to ask some big questions.

I agree, you have some profound and deep things on the table. It was a profiund question you asked, so no wonder you have lots of important majors coming up, I think. Not that I think the Minors are less important... I really like the creative and open way of forming the spread while doing the reading!

1. How valuable are my offerings to the community right now? Death.
I took this as being sort of a personal page turning, mirrored by a planetary shift/change in awareness/vibrating level. More and more people are making the shift from the old ways of doing things, and they need/will need guidance from Tarot and spiritually uplifting music. Plus, on the personal level, I NEED to do this as well. (My focus was rather on others, as I tend to get too focused on ME...how can I benefit from my business, when it should be how can OTHERS benefit from my services/offerings? Hence my question as originally stated. So while the card is pointing out the spiritual need of the planet/community right now, it's also pointing out MY shift, and my NEED to shift from viewing my business as valuable to ME, and focus on how it's valuable to THEM.

I think you are right thinking that the cards told you to think about yourself and your own shit, too. Maybe even first. As a very wise drag queen puts it: If you can't love yourself, how the hell you're gonna love somebody else! (RuPaul). Deal with your own issues, get a clear view, then you can be helpful to others and do your part in the universe.
Arcana XIII - something ended, something new is beginning. It's the end of the world as we know it... and I feel fine. (REM)

2. Wow. Ok...what else do I need to know? Papess. Wowie. Deep intuition, meditational wisdom. The old dying way, is the patriarchy. The feminine was forced to take on this disguise for many hundreds, thousands of years. The planet is awakening/shifting, as seen in the death card. My devotion to HER needs to be complete as she can guide me as the source of intuition and music. This is doing things the NEW way.

3. Ok...anything else I need to know? 5 of swords reversed. I was just talking about this card on AT TdM forum yesterday. I used it as an example. And this was the example I gave. You have set good verbal and mental boundaries about yourself as to what you are, who you are, what you will and will not do. (that's 4 of swords) Now the 5th sword comes in...challenging them. This particulary is coming from without...the current capitalistic/patriarchal system of supporting ourselves...not with heart and doing what we love (that's my new paradigm...those are the limits I've set up...I'm only doing what feels right to me...). It's shown as coming from without because of the handle turned away from me. BUT, it's also coming from me, because i have the trained response of thinking (swords) of things in the old ways. I need to knock it off, trust the universe, trust my inner power sources to "draw all things needful, spiritual and material" to quote BOTA. I need to maintain the boundaries (4) I have drawn (Swords) for my own piece of mind (swords). (The five shows the 1 set against the 4)

La Pances, as she is charmingly (mis)spelled in the Dodal (or does this spelling want to tell us she is all about a thinking, La Pensée in french which is nearly homophone?), for me this card is about power and control through intellect. Wisdom. Studying. Thinking. Analyzing a situation, reflection without immediate action. She is not preaching like her male counterpart (that would be you on the soapbox, Le Pape, maybe ), but looking at the past, at XIII in this reading and learning its lessons. Telling you to do the same.

5 swords. The red sword pierces the 4 swords, but it is not intervowen with their system. 5s are a crisis, breaking up of old habits or structures to me, painful, but necessary. You need to overcome your old way of thinking and come to a new world view, even new belief system. This is more of an intellectual process (no cups or staves anywhere to be seen, these seem to be secondary matters for your "big question" right now), it's all in your head.

4. Ok, well what do i DO about it? King of Coins reversed. This card has come up for me in about every reading I've done this month. Here, i think it's patriarchal ways of making money...the job system. The banking system. The "look out for number one" system...the "career" system. And it's reversed. A visual representation of "what to do"...i.e. STOP DOING THAT SYSTEM. Yeh, I've never been too good at all that anyhow. Focus on power from within. Focus on offering my valuable services, the rest will take care of itself.

I usually don't do reversals myself, but for me you are quite spot on with your view on this card. If not reversed, he would look away from the whole spread, turn his back onto your matters, so it doesn't change an awful lot for me if he is reversed or not. In the Tirage en Croix this would be the "antithesis" position, what opposes you.
I like it that you bring the patriarchal aspect into your understanding, as opposed to La Pances. Makes very much sense.

5. But then how do I make my way in this world...how do i meet my finanial obligations? (Here's a clincher card...and one I'd especially like some input on). The Lovers. First thin that popped into my mind was "do what you love, the money will follow". I have to make CHOICES to follow what I love (I've made that choice actually) and stop fretting about "making it work". I love Tarot. I love music. I love how they make me feel, and I love helping others feel that way. I think there's a real emphasis in the card on communication: making connection with people whom I can help and who can help me.

This is where my view differs quite a lot with yours. Look at the Card, the middle figure is torn between left and right. In the Dodal he looks straight at us:

While in the Conver he looks more to the left, but seems to walk to the right. Anyway, he is torn, and quite literally, these two persons tear at him. The one on the left wears some kind of wreath on her head, which is made out of the same leaves the grim reaper is cutting of. The one on the right... that might just be her hair, but the locks or whatever it is are very regular round circles... coins? at least they echo the Kings coin. Then look at where the reaper and the king are looking at. They are checking out how the two ladies are doing... These figures are their emissaries, both trying to influence you in the name of their master cards.

Now what do they mean. Arcana XIII seems to be your recent past, with all the drastic changes. The reaper: Burn all your bridges behind you! Cut off what connected you to your life before. The King represents a possible way for your future, career, money, a more "traditional", patriarchal way as you said. Come work in my insurance company, he seems to say, it's safe and good money.

Now there comes the figure from above. I love that he is blindfolded on the Dodal, he is only a messenger, shooting it into your heart and your brain. And the message comes from above - La Pances and the 5 swords are telling you to not get caught in this seemingly irreconcilable duality of past and future, but to look at the past, evaluate what you had and your beliefs, your world view (La Pances) and work towards a new, adapted, richer understanding of the universe for yourself (5 swords). The problem or conflict is horizontal, the solution is vertical. It's not about the money (easily said, I know, unless you don't have any...) - but the cards seem to hint at something else, something bigger, more important which is overlaying your questions of "how to get along financially".

6. What ELSE can I do? 10 of swords, reversed. LOL. I just went over the top (10) with my question, and got the answer given in the 5 of swords, DOUBLED...sort of underlined for emphasis. So I go back and look at the 5 again...here's what I just said up there about what to DO: "I need to knock it off, trust the universe, trust my inner power sources to "draw all things needful, spiritual and material" to quote BOTA. I need to maintain the boundaries (4) I have drawn (Swords) for my own piece of mind (swords). (The five shows the 1 set against the 4)"

The ten swords, as a base, as another element in the vertical "solution" line adds another facette. Look at where the handles of the words are pointing. They are coming from XIII and the Coin King or their emissaries in The Lovers. So it tells me: Don't reject everything from these two principles, but integrate it into your world and it will lead you to completion. Now I'm not sure - for XIII this could mean: keep some of your past beliefs, or things, or people. Or ot could mean: keep some of the spirit of radical change that XIII represents. For the other side: keep open to "career" opportunities, don't reject the possibility of making money, of having a safe income. But for both: Need to be worked into your new self, new identity even.

A very hopeful and positive thing, the 10. It doubles the 5, but for me not only as a reminder, but as a sign of completion. The sword that painfully pierced and shook your carefully constructed balace in its foundations has turned into two swords who are woven into it, making it stronger. Something will be completed, and you will move to the next stage. The carrousel on your head will stop and you won't have to worry and think this much anymore.

So there's my little TdM spread. What struck me was the qty of Majors. And that i pulled the 5 of swords rev when I was just talking about it yesterday, and i pulled the ol King of Pents again.

Input? Other Ideas? Especially about Lovers?
Thanks
Mallah

Thank you for sharing this with us! I hope my long post makes any sense to you... If not, ask and I can try to clarify what I get from the cards.

I must say I admire your way of first looking at the universe or the world or the community, and then zooming in onto yourself. The way you asked your first question alone tells much about you! For me the cards are more about personal introspection, but this made me want to think more about others, the bigger picture, the universe.

I think you are reading really amazing with the TdM, and there was only one little pentacle still finding its way in! No honestly, I really enjoyed this a lot! Hope you don't mind that I took your cards quite somewhere else and didn't stay too close to your original questions... Let me know what you think!

 

[Mallah]

Well, LC;
I have spent my morning reflecting on this reading, both your version and my version.

It is very much about assessing my beliefs, and re-assessing them. Further, because it's TdM, i think it's taking an opportunity to introduce me to a very different Major Trump II: "La Papesse" instead of "the High Priestess"...as WELL as a very different King of Coins (as opposed to the RWS King of Pentacles.

I've just had a long conversation with the King of Coins. The King of Pents came up in several other readings I did for myself earlier in September, related to career and supporting myself, so I've been sort of processing and reflecting on him already. But thru my coversation with him today, I learned that this is a somewhat different guy in this deck. Interesting. I don't know if this holds true across TdM versions, or if it's just the Burdel version I'm using, but he HOLDS the Coin with a crippled hand. Further, he only has ONE of them (Coins) not stacks of them as he does in some more modern decks, and there is no FRUIT to be found anywhere. He has part of his raiment stretched out to reveal his coin, like he's been hiding/guarding it...obscuring it from the common view. This is all new stuff for this card for me. I'll address it momentarily.

Like I say, he's been coming up a lot, and i was basically getting that he is sort of fatherly financial security. When we are little, that's gifted to us. We don't have to worry about it. At least I didn't. I suppose there are some circumstances where it's always a worry, and that uncertainty trickles down to the kids. That was not my experience. At least not at first. When I was a bit older, my Dad did have some concerns about there being enough...but it was mainly because he was, with very great discipline, socking it away...It seemed to me out of fear...turns out he was setting it aside as an inheritance for me and my sis. So that's why there was "not enough". But when I was small, before I had any inkling of this, and really didn't think about it (what kid does?) there was that idyllic time when security was just PROVIDED. So the King of Pents is that provider. I never saw my Dad LABOR. He wasn't that kind of man. My Dad was a college professor; a thinker, a teacher, which might make you think king of swords...or heirophant/pope type. But he was a creative writing teacher and poet...and lover of classical music. So really, I think of him more as a King of Cups type. He was not a "man's man" as we know them. Like I say, I never saw him LABOR...I saw him think, and ponder. This is the kind of guy I grew up to be. Except Dad had a PhD. He had Tenure. I never attained or aspired to that. So my social strata would be more of the LABOROR type. But I'm not that kind of person. So I try to make a living off of things like Tarot (with it's connections to stories and myth and arts...creative things...) and Music...(also arty...King of Cups, you see?) And I've never been very savvy to the whole money/credit/save it, sock it away, invest it thing.

Hence the King of Coins with the Crippled Hand. But when it comes to my business (if you can call it that) I do work at it, think about it, try to "do the right things" and balance the "practical"...like putting together websites (mine's up now, you can go see it) and always thinking about what to do next...I balance that with the spiritual...positive thinking, visualizing, having right attitudes, "drawing" the right clients and associates and venues to me, trusting that things will fall in place. Between these two sides, I feel like I'm "doing" the right things...but wondering If I have beliefs in place that are hindering me...beliefs like "I'm Lazy"...."I don't LABOR enough". "I'm not the King of Coins because I'm not Stable, don't cant save, I'm not fiscally responsible, I don't believe in credit, or capitalism.

Yet this King of Coins is telling me "You ARE the King of Coins" You are a business entepreneure, you think about advertising, you think about making money...you just don't care to make lots and lots of it, and you don't THINK THAT YOU ARE THE KING OF COINS. (that's why he's reversed). Maybe I'll always be the King of Coins with the crippled hand...handing the money not so well...and only having a little of it. But i need to start seeing myself as the king of coins more.

I've made some really terrible financial blunders in the past, over the last 10 years, and for the past 4 I've had to live off of the generosity/sharing of others. I'd be on the streets if not for them. So in some ways, I'm back to that original state of "its all being gifted to me"...and I very much, out of self esteem, want to fuel my own engines again...rise to the place where I can pay for my own housing, food, bills. Yet I have spent FAR too many years working jobs that I'm not cut out for, trying to bring in that paycheck. I've hurt my back, which takes me out of the "LABORING" class; and I very much have the belief that one should DO what one is wired up/cut out to do. Then and only then will the money come. I'm doing that. Unfortunately, I also harbor the belief that making money from things like music and Tarot is "patchy" at best. Unstable and up and down. That's just the things I've had to come and accept about it.

So to "change these beliefs" well, yeah, in theory. But there's also a little thing called momentum. Change comes slow. If we really knew ourselves to be the powerful creators that we really are...if we trusted and counted on it, we could change our minds, and change would come overnight. But his is INGRAINED stuff from childhood. So the changes come more slowly. ANd I'm 50 and starting over. So NO I am not going back to working the same inefficient jobs that I'm really not cut out to do, and not really advancing. So YES I am going to do what I love, offering Tarot and Music to the world. And YES I need to see myself in a more positive light as a business person and King (of my domain...such as it is).

Okay, I've ranted and raved about the ONE card. I'm going to have to take a break here. I've got a lot to say about the Papess as well.

 

[le_charior]

Mallah! I enjoyed your deep thoughts on the King of Coins very much!

Well, LC;
I have spent my morning reflecting on this reading, both your version and my version.

It is very much about assessing my beliefs, and re-assessing them. Further, because it's TdM, i think it's taking an opportunity to introduce me to a very different Major Trump II: "La Papesse" instead of "the High Priestess"...as WELL as a very different King of Coins (as opposed to the RWS King of Pentacles.

I've just had a long conversation with the King of Coins. The King of Pents came up in several other readings I did for myself earlier in September, related to career and supporting myself, so I've been sort of processing and reflecting on him already. But thru my coversation with him today, I learned that this is a somewhat different guy in this deck. Interesting. I don't know if this holds true across TdM versions, or if it's just the Burdel version I'm using, but he HOLDS the Coin with a crippled hand. Further, he only has ONE of them (Coins) not stacks of them as he does in some more modern decks, and there is no FRUIT to be found anywhere. He has part of his raiment stretched out to reveal his coin, like he's been hiding/guarding it...obscuring it from the common view. This is all new stuff for this card for me. I'll address it momentarily.

The hand, I can very much see that in my Conver (which is supposed to be close to the Burdel, or the other way round, the Burdel close to the Conver, whatever!). Isn't it fascinating how one detail can trigger such long, deep and profound thoughts about a card, about yourself!

And some kind of king he is! Did you notice that he is not in a palace on a throne like the three other kings, but sitting outside, on some kind of foldable camping chair throne? And he has no real crown on top of his head like his fellow kings, but only a very fancy hat. (Not all my ideas or observations, there are nice threads here on the king: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10130 or a lot of images from different historic decks in this one: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=52625) So he is the most unconventional king - and if we go away a little from the literal meaning of the coin, he could very well represent a very earthy, down to earth, hands on kind of principle. (Coins are most often seen as corresponding to Earth in the elements, to me that makes sense). Accepting that you might be the King, or have to be the king can take on these aspects of the card.

Like I say, he's been coming up a lot, and i was basically getting that he is sort of fatherly financial security. When we are little, that's gifted to us. We don't have to worry about it. At least I didn't. I suppose there are some circumstances where it's always a worry, and that uncertainty trickles down to the kids. That was not my experience. At least not at first. When I was a bit older, my Dad did have some concerns about there being enough...but it was mainly because he was, with very great discipline, socking it away...It seemed to me out of fear...turns out he was setting it aside as an inheritance for me and my sis. So that's why there was "not enough". But when I was small, before I had any inkling of this, and really didn't think about it (what kid does?) there was that idyllic time when security was just PROVIDED. So the King of Pents is that provider. I never saw my Dad LABOR. He wasn't that kind of man. My Dad was a college professor; a thinker, a teacher, which might make you think king of swords...or heirophant/pope type. But he was a creative writing teacher and poet...and lover of classical music. So really, I think of him more as a King of Cups type. He was not a "man's man" as we know them. Like I say, I never saw him LABOR...I saw him think, and ponder. This is the kind of guy I grew up to be. Except Dad had a PhD. He had Tenure. I never attained or aspired to that. So my social strata would be more of the LABOROR type. But I'm not that kind of person. So I try to make a living off of things like Tarot (with it's connections to stories and myth and arts...creative things...) and Music...(also arty...King of Cups, you see?) And I've never been very savvy to the whole money/credit/save it, sock it away, invest it thing.

Hence the King of Coins with the Crippled Hand. But when it comes to my business (if you can call it that) I do work at it, think about it, try to "do the right things" and balance the "practical"...like putting together websites (mine's up now, you can go see it) and always thinking about what to do next...I balance that with the spiritual...positive thinking, visualizing, having right attitudes, "drawing" the right clients and associates and venues to me, trusting that things will fall in place. Between these two sides, I feel like I'm "doing" the right things...but wondering If I have beliefs in place that are hindering me...beliefs like "I'm Lazy"...."I don't LABOR enough". "I'm not the King of Coins because I'm not Stable, don't cant save, I'm not fiscally responsible, I don't believe in credit, or capitalism.

Yet this King of Coins is telling me "You ARE the King of Coins" You are a business entepreneure, you think about advertising, you think about making money...you just don't care to make lots and lots of it, and you don't THINK THAT YOU ARE THE KING OF COINS. (that's why he's reversed). Maybe I'll always be the King of Coins with the crippled hand...handing the money not so well...and only having a little of it. But i need to start seeing myself as the king of coins more.

I've made some really terrible financial blunders in the past, over the last 10 years, and for the past 4 I've had to live off of the generosity/sharing of others. I'd be on the streets if not for them. So in some ways, I'm back to that original state of "its all being gifted to me"...and I very much, out of self esteem, want to fuel my own engines again...rise to the place where I can pay for my own housing, food, bills. Yet I have spent FAR too many years working jobs that I'm not cut out for, trying to bring in that paycheck. I've hurt my back, which takes me out of the "LABORING" class; and I very much have the belief that one should DO what one is wired up/cut out to do. Then and only then will the money come. I'm doing that. Unfortunately, I also harbor the belief that making money from things like music and Tarot is "patchy" at best. Unstable and up and down. That's just the things I've had to come and accept about it.

While I read what you wrote about your father (and this is very similiar to my experience, having the basic trust in your childhood that the parents will provide for you) I thought about something else. The hand you are seeing as crippled, maybe it looks so small to show us that the King is holding the coin quite effortless? With the courts I think it is very helpful to look at the development from Page to King. The Page, the Knight and the Queen all have their eye on the coin, and it's big, only the King holds it nearly with neglect. He is the completion of the principle of the coin suit - and like the tens, ready to let go and move on to a next stage. So, a different view on him could be that he advises you to take the economic matter seriously, but not let it rule you or take over your thoughts. Transcend it, so that it becomes a mean for something else, something more important.

So to "change these beliefs" well, yeah, in theory. But there's also a little thing called momentum. Change comes slow. If we really knew ourselves to be the powerful creators that we really are...if we trusted and counted on it, we could change our minds, and change would come overnight. But his is INGRAINED stuff from childhood. So the changes come more slowly. ANd I'm 50 and starting over. So NO I am not going back to working the same inefficient jobs that I'm really not cut out to do, and not really advancing. So YES I am going to do what I love, offering Tarot and Music to the world. And YES I need to see myself in a more positive light as a business person and King (of my domain...such as it is).

No question that change comes slow, and that working on childhood stuff can take a long long time! And I see you on a good way towards your goal of making a living out of the things you love!

I had a quick look at your website, it looks great! Really simple, elegant and efficient, with nice personal touches, the quotes, the images. Will send you some more detailled comments by PM at some time.

Okay, I've ranted and raved about the ONE card. I'm going to have to take a break here. I've got a lot to say about the Papess as well.

I am very much looking forward to that! La Papesse or La Pances or The Popess... a very mysterious card! So nice to talk about these cards and discover what you see in them! I hope this thread is not turning into a one on one conversation between us (even if I don't mind it at all, on the contrary), but that some other people throw in their thoughts, too!

 

[Mallah]

My reflections on la Papesse;

first, as far as my own reading is concerned, it still stands as I read it yesterday. Intuition. It applies in the context of what i was reading about. And in a larger sense, I feel the cards sort of telling me, "look, you are approaching the world of BUSINESS, the MARKETPLACE with something that is very personal, quiet, meditative, spiritual...you have to expect a different approach. You are not selling shoes, you know."

One often sees, hears, reads, that Tarot is something for and by women. I did 14 readings out on the mall last weekend...all were for women. You know the thing about Guys being too proud to stop and ask for directions? I think that's it. Further, the females are seen as being more intuitive/emotional. Actually i am told that it's a boon to be a male card reader, because women want that different perspective. I'm told I'm "fatherly". And I do, i really do, have to tap that inner sacred feminine part of me to read well. "The watery deep". So my personal interpretation of the card as appearing in my reading has not changed.

However, as i come to TdM from the other more modern decks, i find myself finding a different meaning in the card on a historical level.

I'm not talking about the "Pope Joan" thing. Nor am I talking about Guglielma of Bohemia. So lets not get those discussions started up in here. It matters little if that was the start of the image...(and I don't think it was.) "The holy Church, bride of Christ" is a bit closer to base, but it's larger than this, even...it's the shrouded, hidden, deposed feminine goddess, who had to go undercover to survive the inquisition...Even larger that that, it's worldwide, not just a Catholic phenomenon...other religions cultures all over the world supressed the goddess. It's still a "shroud of mystery" however. So she was sort of an occult secret...even hidden in places like the bible as "bride of Christ". I recall also the Shekinah, deposed feminine half of God, looking to be restored, and Eve, who the whole "fall" thing was pinned on.

In modern decks we have "brought her out" and revealed her again. But still, she remains hidden, what with our world full of pollution and war, and the horrendous ways women, nature and spirit are treated all over the world. You can't fool her, we have a long way to go!

It's also very interesting to me that as far back as Court de Geblin, she was being called the High Priestess. And the Pope, also was being called the Hierophant by CdG. I had the misconception that this changed with RWS. Thats when the TITLE of the card was changed. But CdG was calling this pair by Hermetic names. So there was an EARLY awareness of occult doctrine being illustrated in the deck.

Also, I don't see the Magician/High Preistess as a couple. It's so often talked about in the tarot books 1+2=3. And that she is 2 to his 1. I see more of a Papess/Pope 2+5=7 thing. (And 3+4=7 as well). The Magician is ONE and in ONE there is no OTHER. He is ONE unto himself. Yes, I understand that in Pythagorean number systems, you have to do the 1+2=3 thing...but as far as the archetypes go, the Magician is not a pair with the High Priestess. High Priestess is paired with the High Priest.

I find it intriguing that here in the TdM forum, there is not a thread about her. (maybe in the other threads, in regards to the high priestess...or maybe even the Popess, but over in individual card studies...I haven't really looked yet.) I only found a few brief threads, and nothing really comprehensive...(one was really about the Pope, and the so called "inspection").

So my reflections on Papesse are not so much on how she appears in my reading, but just in general, and how it's different in TdM than in the more modern decks.

 

[le_charior]

My reflections on la Papesse;

first, as far as my own reading is concerned, it still stands as I read it yesterday. Intuition. It applies in the context of what i was reading about. And in a larger sense, I feel the cards sort of telling me, "look, you are approaching the world of BUSINESS, the MARKETPLACE with something that is very personal, quiet, meditative, spiritual...you have to expect a different approach. You are not selling shoes, you know."

Looking at it again, I like that a lot, I think that makes very much sense.

One often sees, hears, reads, that Tarot is something for and by women. I did 14 readings out on the mall last weekend...all were for women. You know the thing about Guys being too proud to stop and ask for directions? I think that's it.

That's a great analogy!

Further, the females are seen as being more intuitive/emotional. Actually i am told that it's a boon to be a male card reader, because women want that different perspective. I'm told I'm "fatherly". And I do, i really do, have to tap that inner sacred feminine part of me to read well. "The watery deep". So my personal interpretation of the card as appearing in my reading has not changed.

However, as i come to TdM from the other more modern decks, i find myself finding a different meaning in the card on a historical level.

I'm not talking about the "Pope Joan" thing. Nor am I talking about Guglielma of Bohemia. So lets not get those discussions started up in here. It matters little if that was the start of the image...(and I don't think it was.) "The holy Church, bride of Christ" is a bit closer to base, but it's larger than this, even...it's the shrouded, hidden, deposed feminine goddess, who had to go undercover to survive the inquisition...Even larger that that, it's worldwide, not just a Catholic phenomenon...other religions cultures all over the world supressed the goddess. It's still a "shroud of mystery" however. So she was sort of an occult secret...even hidden in places like the bible as "bride of Christ". I recall also the Shekinah, deposed feminine half of God, looking to be restored, and Eve, who the whole "fall" thing was pinned on.

In modern decks we have "brought her out" and revealed her again. But still, she remains hidden, what with our world full of pollution and war, and the horrendous ways women, nature and spirit are treated all over the world. You can't fool her, we have a long way to go!

I agree with the idea that La Papesse might very well have an underlying current of representations of a female "deity" or principle that needed to find a way in the patriarchal system of representation. Like the christian holidays incorporated pre-christian dates and habits into their system, like the french "vierges noires" echo egyptian statues while representing Mary, etc etc... I still think, to do the card and justice, the concept of the Popess is quite different than the modern "High Priestess" cards, right?

She reminds me of Hildegard of Bingen, a little.

It's also very interesting to me that as far back as Court de Geblin, she was being called the High Priestess. And the Pope, also was being called the Hierophant by CdG. I had the misconception that this changed with RWS. Thats when the TITLE of the card was changed. But CdG was calling this pair by Hermetic names. So there was an EARLY awareness of occult doctrine being illustrated in the deck.

Mhm. If I remember this right, CdG was the first to claim the egyptian origin of the Tarot and that their secret knowledge etc is hidden within the playing cards, that's why he relabeled the Pope and the Popess, no? To get rid of the Christian reference? Me, since I am not coming from the RWS or Golden Dawn concept of Tarot at all, I never thought much about this, neither the Egyptian nor the Kabbalah connection of the Tarot seemed plausible to me. It is more interesting to think about what was present in Renaissance Italy around the time the first known cards were made, which discourses were underlying the official church belief system of the time - so a much less direct connection, which does not rule out connections to older cultural systems.

On a side note: the Tarot cards were around for nearly three centuries in Europe before the idea of an occult doctrine, of them being directly coming from the Old Egyptians etc... came up, no?

Tom Tadfor Little once wrote this Open Letter to Card readers which sums up all this history stuff way better than I could - and also the rest of his site is truly enlightening to me. (I hope you are not offended by this in any way, it's only how I see it. Compared to people with a very long experience in Tarot (like you!) I still know near to nothing of the practice of Tarot, just read some books. It's only been a few months, so this is only my try to grasp what the Tarot is about, for me.)

Also, I don't see the Magician/High Preistess as a couple. It's so often talked about in the tarot books 1+2=3. And that she is 2 to his 1. I see more of a Papess/Pope 2+5=7 thing. (And 3+4=7 as well). The Magician is ONE and in ONE there is no OTHER. He is ONE unto himself. Yes, I understand that in Pythagorean number systems, you have to do the 1+2=3 thing...but as far as the archetypes go, the Magician is not a pair with the High Priestess. High Priestess is paired with the High Priest.

Yes, I totally agree! Female and Male Pope, representing spiritual power, frame the Female and Male Emperor, representing earthly power.

I find it intriguing that here in the TdM forum, there is not a thread about her. (maybe in the other threads, in regards to the high priestess...or maybe even the Popess, but over in individual card studies...I haven't really looked yet.) I only found a few brief threads, and nothing really comprehensive...(one was really about the Pope, and the so called "inspection").

You mean the "How may It be read" thread as indexed in post 3 in the Table of Contents? I noticed that too (even if there is a long thread about the card, linked in the first post, but more about the history and iconography. No idea why the La Papesse, L'Emperatrice and L'Empereur don't have a thread in "How May It Be Read" - we can always start one!)

So my reflections on Papesse are not so much on how she appears in my reading, but just in general, and how it's different in TdM than in the more modern decks.

Are you going back to the mall today? Hope you are having a good day, whatever you do!

EDITED to remove some stuff that was totally off topic and had nothing to do with either the reading or the card discussed. Will think the stuff I edited out through and post it somewhere when the time is right. Sorry!

 

[Mallah]

LC said:
I agree with the idea that La Papesse might very well have an underlying current of representations of a female "deity" or principle that needed to find a way in the patriarchal system of representation. Like the christian holidays incorporated pre-christian dates and habits into their system, like the french "vierges noires" echo egyptian statues while representing Mary, etc etc... I still think, to do the card and justice, the concept of the Popess is quite different than the modern "High Priestess" cards, right?

She reminds me of Hildegard of Bingen, a little.

Mallah sez:
Personally, the point that the Tarot didn't exist before 1450 is inconsequential to me. The images did. And there are images from the early 1500's (from astrology and divination books) that use the same images that are used in tarot FOR DIVINTATION. Sometimes as many as 12 of them in one picture.
http://tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/wheel
(pay attention to images 9 & 10 and what the writer sez about them)

So the "occult" connection was there, contemporary to the creation of the tarot. Long before it in fact. The IMAGES OF THE TAROT GO BACK MUCH MUCH FURTHER THAN THE TAROT ITSELF. So the history of the archetypes and what they mean in the psyche is far older than the pretty card game. The innovation of putting them on cards makes it easier to connect the dots and arrange them in spectacular patterns that seem to tell stories, unlike a book where one page follows after another and will always go in that same order.

As far as the Popess being much different than the modern rendition, I'm not sure. In the sense that she represents the mysteries of feminine spirituality, veiled...it's just a different veil depicted...one of the times. The TIMES have changed, and she is a bit more free to move around...(not that she has been restricted at all...WE were). Our attitudes towards her is more recognizing. In those times, we looked at that image and saw a female pope. Now we see her more clearly. But to say we see the High Priestess clearly...well she's still the deep, inscrutable mystery.....

LC said:
Mhm. If I remember this right, CdG was the first to claim the egyptian origin of the Tarot and that their secret knowledge etc is hidden within the playing cards, that's why he relabeled the Pope and the Popess, no? To get rid of the Christian reference? Me, since I am not coming from the RWS or Golden Dawn concept of Tarot at all, I never thought much about this, neither the Egyptian nor the Kabbalah connection of the Tarot seemed plausible to me. It is more interesting to think about what was present in Renaissance Italy around the time the first known cards were made, which discourses were underlying the official church belief system of the time - so a much less direct connection, which does not rule out connections to older cultural systems.

Mallah sez:
ALL of the Mysteries were rolled up in these images. (Notice that I say "images", not Tarot. They didn't make it into the card deck untill later). We know that the deck of cards with swords, wands, cups, and pentacles came out of Egypt/Arabia much earlier and the Trifoni got added later. But the images had old origins too...and they changed over the ages, and still do change. What was present in Renaissance Italy was a bunch of minds and hearts that stood on the shoulders of the past. That's what exists today. The Church had adopted all the old pre-church symbols, because they understood that the unconscious was (still is) Pagan. They "pretended" (viz. the Popess) that these symbols were not Pagan.

LC said:
On a side note: the Tarot cards were around for nearly three centuries in Europe before the idea of an occult doctrine, of them being directly coming from the Old Egyptians etc... came up, no?

Mallah sez:
No.
(LOL...that oughta get the others to chime in here!) All seriousness aside..The Images, or the Cards? People knew right away that the images contained occult doctrine...but remember it was "occult" which means "hidden"...there's thousands who still use the cards today and never think twice about the "deeper meanings". Just as there are Billions who use numbers and letters and never think twice about deeper meanings. These things have vernacular useages...they are out in the open, "occult" which is the very definition of the Papess...hidden...means just that...and she's hidden in the open. The Papess is the occult it'self!

LC said:
Tom Tadfor Little once wrote this Open Letter to Card readers which sums up all this history stuff way better than I could - and also the rest of his site is truly enlightening to me. (I hope you are not offended by this in any way, it's only how I see it. Compared to people with a very long experience in Tarot (like you!) I still know near to nothing of the practice of Tarot, just read some books. It's only been a few months, so this is only my try to grasp what the Tarot is about, for me.)

Mallah sez:
You say it's only been a few months...but look at the depth of your experience and knowledge of the images...that is because it's really been much much longer than a few months. True, the CARDS have only been in your experience for a few months...but the images, and what they speak of, have spoken in your spirit for far longer. That's what I'm saying here about the images and what they represent pre-existing their history as cards. The "Tarot" is not a deck of cards...any more than you are your body. The forces these little cardboard images point to in us are ancient. They DO go back to Egypt, Babylon, Isreal. Further, even. As does our DNA. You pick up on them fast because they are encoded into your being. No, it's been much longer than a few months. And it's been much longer than the 500 years that they've been depicted on playing cards. So saying they only go back to the 1400's, and then occult significance came later is like saying your DNA only goes back to whenever you were born, and then you picked up the Tarot years later.

LC said:
Yes, I totally agree! Female and Male Pope, representing spiritual power, frame the Female and Male Emperor, representing earthly power.

Mallah sez:
Yeah. There's a definition of the difference between spirit and soul that runs like this: the spirit is the part of us that is focused upwards (towards God) and the soul is the part of us that is focused downwards (towards the world). I think this rings true. And the Pope(ss) pair represent the spiritual part, and the Emperor/ess pair represent the soul part...they preside over nature and the world.

LC said:
You mean the "How may It be read" thread as indexed in post 3 in the Table of Contents? I noticed that too (even if there is a long thread about the card, linked in the first post, but more about the history and iconography. No idea why the La Papesse, L'Emperatrice and L'Empereur don't have a thread in "How May It Be Read" - we can always start one!)

Mallah sez:
Yeah I guess that's what I'm talking about. All I know is I did searches on "papess", on "papesse", on "papessa" and on "High Priestess" IN THE TITLE OF THE THREAD ONLY and nothing of real significance came up. Now, like I said, there might be Papess threads over in the individual cards studies forums. I just looked here because I was specifically looking for history / iconography of this specific image, not the more modern ones.


LC said:
Are you going back to the mall today? Hope you are having a good day, whatever you do!

Malla sez:
Nah, can't. The permit thing. I did the reasearch on it and called the offices. The permits for October are already granted, and you can't even apply from a distance (I'm 50 miles away.) You have to GO IN and apply. They grant them by lottery, and do 3 for readers a month. Further, November will be dead. So I have about 6 months to figure this out, whether I'm going to do that or not. Further, i payed out the money to re-register the truck I drive, but the licence sticker has not arrived yet, and it's now a new month and I'm "not legal" without the sticker. So here I sit. No worries. I'm going to find some indoor places to sit and read. Somewhere there is a coffee house with my name on it...

You have a good day too.
I enjoy our thread, even if nobody else chimes in. Maybe if I stir things up...
THE OCCULT SIGNIFICANCE WAS ALWAYS THERE WITH THE TAROT CARDS AND CAME ALONG WITH THE IMAGES. THE IMAGES WERE COPPED FROM PREVIOUS SOURCES AND ALONG CAME THE OCCULT MEANINGS AS WELL...AND MOST PEOPLE JUST NEVER PICK UP ON THEM THATS WHAT MAKES THEM OCCULT. BUT THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PEOPLE WHO KNEW ABOUT IT.

There...maybe that'll get someone to chime in! Got a lozenge? I think I hurt my throat, all that shouting...


Mallah

 

[le_charior]

Ha! Maybe more people will join in if I do the TOTALLY opposite position from yours?

The Tarot is a Renaissance pack of cards and nothing else, and some people, later, out of greed or to fool their fellow humans, invented some stupid story about egyptians and gypsies, and to this day these LIES are used to make money on the back of poor souls who do not bother to read their history books! THERE IS NOTHING OCCULT IN THE TAROT AT ALL AND NEVER HAS BEEN!!!

Well, we'll see if this works.

I will get back to you very very seriously a bit later when I had time to think about what you said, but I wanted to post the thread on La Papesse from the Forum Table of Contents: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3165
And I always like to read and look at the Iconology pages by Robert O'Neill on tarot.com: http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/papess Maybe you have seen that already, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to post them, for you or if anybody is lurking and interested!