But what does it MEAN ?

[gregory]

Of course. I suppose I just interpreted the O.P as "But what does it MEAN (for you)?"

The OP (moi !) meant more where does the meaning COME to you from.

 

[gregory]

I would say no. I shall lay my neck on the line and say "no".

Just as I don't think we can truly understand what is the true meaning behind Renaissance art or African sculpture. We don't have that mindset. We think we can (either that or we say it doesn't matter, it is what I think that's important.)

But I genuinely do not believe that we can entirely get inside something historically speaking. I am thinking of art, literature and by extension, tarot. However, something created within our own lifespan, with our cultural references, then we might just stand a chance. But, no, I don't think I can ever truly know what exactly Mr Vieville was trying to convey to his contemporaries and, subsequently, 300 years later, to me.

I know people will disagree - and that's fine - but I think the only route you can go down is "it doesn't matter" and I shall make the deck my own.

Oops, cross post. OK - I also meant not so much "can you if you try" - but can it come through without your trying. I don't mean deliberately getting into it, but whether it can get through to you.

Like - if this creator had made a deck knowing that the earth was flat - could hints of that get into your head ?

 

[Wendywu]

So a lot for you comes from "learned" knowledge ?

But what I meant about the creators so whether what they felt or intended can come through - even if we don't know about them, their time in history and so on ?

Learned is about 30% provided my gut gives me something to go on. In that case, the learning kinda influences what the gut says.

If there's no gut feeling, then it's bring out all the learned and hope that kicks me into some understanding.....

I don't know whether Lorena's intention comes through in Ironwing. I don't see how it can fail to really. Whether or not I pick up on that intention is anyone's guess. I do think though, that if her deck appeals to me so strongly, then to an extent we surely think along roughly the same lines. We both have a shamanic worldview for instance.

With a less specific deck - I don't know. I need to think about that one.

 

[Le Fanu]

Surely it's like all the best Art.

The artist has a meaning and intention and gives it a very distinct voice but once it is *out there* the public/viewer/reader makes of it what they will. And my guess is they cannot pick up that exact meaning and intention. And it doesn't make any difference, and that what is great about tarot (and Art) is that we make it our own and we can be shamelessly subjective.

And still it *works* (whatever that means) for us.

 

[Aerin]

Yes, I agree Le Fanu.

The meaning comes from everywhere, it's an interaction and a negotiation. Next year I might get something else from the same card because of an experience I have had or a book I have read or whatever.

 

[gregory]

Yes, I agree Le Fanu.

The meaning comes from everywhere, it's an interaction and a negotiation. Next year I might get something else from the same card because of an experience I have had or a book I have read or whatever.

Which sort of must mean that most of it comes from US, as the image on the card remains constant...

 

[EarthFaery]

I have no idea.

What I want to know is - you have a card in front of you.

What defines its meaning ? The book ? The picture you see ? Your background ? The background of the person who created it ? Where, ultimately, does the meaning come from ?

Great topic! I don't know if I'll answer these right but I have some opinions on where the meanings should come from.
I must admit I rarely think of the artists intentions, I don't know why, maybe cuz I think I'm on the same page if I can read the deck. There are some decks out there though that I've had to see what the artist was thinking to decipher what the card is all about.
Experience and time has been key for me
The books killed me, meanings varied so much I was soooo confused...the pictoral key to the tarot omg that book tortured me to no end, It was so confusing and negative, not easy at all! LWB's? forget it, way too patchy.
The mythic came around and gave me a completely different understanding to the cards, I actually agree with many of the meanings in the book, regardless of what deck I'm using, not all but it's the only 1 I can really relate with.

If we all experience life different then for sure individual card meanings will vary, I completely get that.
I base my meanings on my own experience with each card, when it comes up I know exactly what it means.(I personally think this is the only way to learn) At some point, I started to notice more and more physical things, then I started picking those things apart to form words etc.

The cards have grown with me, right by my side for 21 yrs now, my entire adult life. There's a lot of knowledge and experiences packed in there. A lot of been there done this and also keeping open minded for new experiences, I learn something with every reading I do just about.
I think in a way, based on my crazy life, (you wouldn't believe!) I am a little wiser in certain areas than say someone who has an easy peasy kinda life, where everything is nice nice, no real problems out of the ordinary, no first hand experience.

Pretty much any card can mean anything depending on what I'm reading. It must just be me ha, maybe I trained myself, I don't know but I can see movement, actions, attitudes, pretty much anything....if it's in there or even close I'll see it, a lot of times I know what I'm seeing but I don't know what it is, that's a pain.
I always use the word morph, I don't know how else to describe how I read the pics. I was reading for someone the 8 of pents, I have 1 "keyword" attached to this card, it's training...but that could mean ANYTHING from dog training to work training, taming that cowlick (for real) this is where the morphing comes in, during this particular reading his hammer suddenly wasn't a hammer anymore, it was a dumbell, I could literally see his arm pumping and workin it pretty good...so there now I have a subject and on the reading goes. Without seeing that how would I have known we were talking about her workouts? I would've had to have her tell me rather than me tell her. Picture reading is the only way I know how to personalize the reading.

I think particularly of cards created way back when (this thought came from another thread) when the creator would have thought very differently about the world than we do today. If, for instance, there had been (maybe is) a deck created by someone who "knew" the world was flat and/or revolved around the sun; who "knew" that women are intellectually inferior to men - and the like - does that in any way colour what we see years later - does it in some way come across because that was what went through the creator's mind when the card was created ? And if not - what else may we have lost of the original intent ?

I often think about this too, I would love a real true modern deck...trying to modernize a very old deck is to me more like a series of cracking codes in the pictures...certain little things in the card means something, like the emperor for instance, he is the father but he's also represents brains, computers so if my focus is drawn to the top of his head I know I'm dealing with computer issues...if it's the 1 hand it's father related if the other it's a medical expert, I would love to just see a computer and be done with it but then again a lot of the fun is cracking codes and finding things.

Or is it all in what WE see ? (as many here will know, I go by what I see, basically...) Or how much is in the "accepted" meanings anyway ?

And - what implications does this have for the old chestnut thing - "but I read intuitively" - I don't actually say that any more, but I do know that some here call it that when what they mean is that they discount generic meanings.

Is "your own meaning" paramount ? (I realise it has to count for a lot, or we could all just look it up in books.) Do you think you get something from the background prevailing when the deck was created ? Do you "decide" what the card means when you see it ?

What a lot of questions; this is a huge question for me..... Now I expect answers. Postcards not necessary.

Seriously, I never really understood what intuitive reading means...does it just mean reading pictures? someone please enlighten me
I don't know if I would call how I read intuitive, I thought everyone read like that ha, I thought that's what the pictures were for? Otherwise why not just put a bunch of random words in a hat and pull them one by one and make a sentence I bet that works too! I gonna try it sometime...

 

[Aerin]

Which sort of must mean that most of it comes from US, as the image on the card remains constant...

I suppose it depends how you define "from us" - the environment you are brought up in (culture, books, etc etc etc) influences "us".

 

[gregory]

Seriously, I never really understood what intuitive reading means...does it just mean reading pictures? someone please enlighten me
I don't know if I would call how I read intuitive, I thought everyone read like that ha, I thought that's what the pictures were for? Otherwise why not just put a bunch of random words in a hat and pull them one by one and make a sentence I bet that works too! I gonna try it sometime...

WELL - I no longer use the term "intuitive reading, as it is belittling to other readers - I think everyone uses their intuition, whatever the way they read, I now refer to the way I read as the glorpish method. Which is exactly what you describe. I look at the pictures.

And - well, what you suggest might work, - but after I was challenged, I tried with magazine pictures and with oracle cards - nada. Whatever it is I do, for me, it needs a tarot deck. I have no idea why, but that begs a whole new set of questions.

You could try the circle where we practise this...

 

[Libra8ca]

The meaning comes from everywhere, it's an interaction and a negotiation. Next year I might get something else from the same card because of an experience I have had or a book I have read or whatever.

Same here. I get the meaning from what the picture shows as well as what I associate with it as a result of my life experience. All of this in addition to the traditional card meanings.
It's a mixture of techniques and I would call it divination, i.e. interpreting the symbols the universe shows you. True intuition / psychic information to me would be something that just comes to you without any basis in what the cards show you. Sometimes this can happen....

And - well, what you suggest might work, - but after I was challenged, I tried with magazine pictures and with oracle cards - nada. Whatever it is I do, for me, it needs a tarot deck. I have no idea why, but that begs a whole new set of questions.

I can also read oracle cards and magazine pictures using the above described method but it can get difficult depending on what is shown in the picture.