Can this Mars Retrograde mess be repaired?

[Astraea]

Hi Dark Electric, I want to be clear about the March 18 opposition. If you go back and read my posts, you'll see that I was referring to some type of turning point, which could well be on the inner planes - i.e., a confrontation with self or a demarcation, a clarification, perhaps a decision. Try not to fixate on the date, because often things are set in motion whose manifestation appears at a later, and seemingly unrelated, time. I mentioned the March 18 period because I thought it might help you to see that the momentum of your question was purposeful, and that a clearer idea of your situation would be possible soon.

I would also like to add a bit to what Minderwiz has said about significators. I didn't want to go into too much depth about that subject in my post yesterday because I thought that I might only add confusion to the mix, but Minderwiz has described horary conditions and philosophy in such a masterful way that he has cleared the path for me to affirm that, yes, horaries done for different locations and times in response to sincere questions and a genuine need to know do produce essentially the same answers. In fact, I did my own charts for your questions based on my location and time (that is, where and when I understood your question), and came up with the same answers that Minderwiz' charts produced.

In four charts, then - based on your two questions - the answer was that you hold an almost peripheral position for this man right now. His primary focus is maintaining the status quo, for even though he might be unhappy, he seems unwilling to risk upsetting the apple cart. I would also add that the more you push, the more he will tend to see you as a carping wife-figure, and will feel even more caught between a rock and a hard place.

This dilemma is his to resolve, pure and simple. There is nothing you can do on your end but encourage him to be honest with himself and do what he thinks he can live with. Otherwise, your lives together will be miserable and you will have gained nothing.

(Edited to add: I wish that the charts revealed an easier picture, but the fact is that this fellow is conflicted - efforts to force him into action before he's genuinely ready are likely to produce resentment. That's just basic psychology. It has not been suggested that you break with him, only that you assess the situation carefully and realize that the ball is in his court at this point. The two of you established a timetable two years ago that might need to be reexamined in light of his current feelings. If he leaves his family situation in a way that seems premature to him, your relationship with him will not have as firm a footing as if he'd left with sadness, perhaps, but not regret.)

 

[DarkElectric]

Hi Astrea,
Thank you for your kindness and wise advice.
I appreciate the time and effort you put in to doing charts for me on this, I hope that my experience here is helping others learn, and is an example in action as to how horaries function.

I'm to the point where I feel marginalised to such a degree that I'm ready to just not bother speaking to him altogether.
I feel perhipheral.
I feel low priority.
I am not a low priority person.
I am feeling as if I'm ready to pitch this whole thing into the bin.

Not based on the charts, but based on the anger I feel at being marginalised after all that I was told, and encouraged to believe, by this man.
I don't want to become a carping wife figure.
I'm now starting to wonder if 'she' was always a carping wife, as she is today, or has become so due to frustration with aspects of his personality and ways of dealing with things which I now believe are in no way exclusive to his relationship with me.

I sent him an email last night asking him why he was so reluctant to talk to me. Perhaps that was the wrong thing to do.

IF I hear from him, which I might, unless he's so terrified of all of this, and embarrassed that he got himself into the position that everything said he wanted has a serious risk of actually coming true, I'll tell him that he needs to be honest with himself.
I have to be honest with myself too. I love him, but if he's going to behave this way, and grant me low priority, I deserve better.

(Edited to add..)
We established this timetable 4 mos ago, when he declared that he was finally ready to take our relationship to the "next level" and this is when we began to plan 'our' future in earnest. We've been together for 2 years, LDR, internet, and those sweet occasions when 'she' went off on business and I flew out.
I was overjoyed when he assured me that he'd made his decision, had chosen me, and now was ready to take the steps necessary on his end for us to be together. That was Dec 20, the day Mars went retro. According to him, this was his decision. And now, I feel as if I'm getting the cold shoulder, and the run around. Bah. It's the reason I feel "Bait and Switched" right now, and why I'm so mad that I'm considering that I might be ready to be the one who walks.

Thanks Astrea, and Minderwiz, you guys are the best.

 

[Astraea]

I'm now starting to wonder if 'she' was always a carping wife, as she is today, or has become so due to frustration with aspects of his personality and ways of dealing with things which I now believe are in no way exclusive to his relationship with me.

You raise a good point. With Jupiter in Sagittarius and Pisces, respectively, in the two horaries reproduced here, the man is shown as a figure who might feel a sense of entitlement and ease, even complacency, in his current situation. Jupiter in his own signs can be passive-aggressive, that is, he would probably prefer to avoid open conflict. It doesn't make him a bad person, but yes, you want to have a central place in his life and if he can't make that call on his own, the relationship will inevitably suffer. For the purposes of your question, Jupiter describes his modus operandi; more generally, a person's behavior under stress of this kind can bring many fundamental issues to light which are painful to see, but important to recognize.

It seems to me that this is what we're witnessing with Mercury (you) moving away from Jupiter (him). You're gaining the perspective needed to assess what is really happening here, and how you feel, as well as what his needs are (and those of the child). There is also the wife to consider, and monetary implications as well as custodial decisions (the planet Jupiter is concerned with finance as a general principle). So I think the charts are saying not to rush or push a decision; waiting and watching will work to everyone's benefit in the long run.

 

[DarkElectric]

You raise a good point. With Jupiter in Sagittarius and Pisces, respectively, in the two horaries reproduced here, the man is shown as a figure who might feel a sense of entitlement and ease, even complacency, in his current situation. Jupiter in his own signs can be passive-aggressive, that is, he would probably prefer to avoid open conflict. It doesn't make him a bad person, but yes, you want to have a central place in his life and if he can't make that call on his own, the relationship will inevitably suffer. For the purposes of your question, Jupiter describes his modus operandi; more generally, a person's behavior under stress of this kind can bring many fundamental issues to light which are painful to see, but important to recognize.

It seems to me that this is what we're witnessing with Mercury (you) moving away from Jupiter (him). You're gaining the perspective needed to assess what is really happening here, and how you feel, as well as what his needs are (and those of the child). There is also the wife to consider, and monetary implications as well as custodial decisions (the planet Jupiter is concerned with finance as a general principle). So I think the charts are saying not to rush or push a decision; waiting and watching will work to everyone's benefit in the long run.

It's definitely difficult for me not to shoot off an email to the guy telling him I'm tired of feeling marginalised, buh-bye. I'm really, really angry.

I know we'd be able to make it financially on our own, I have some wherewithall myself, albeit it's not as considerable an amount of massive wealth as she possesses. This union with him would be financially beneficial for me, in many ways. I was planning on purchasing property there, "Expanding my empire" so to speak. But this all looks so shaky right now.

He's no dummy, he's an attorney, and I think it might help him feel better about himself knowing that he was pulling his own weight, instead of depending on a rich wife for his sustenance. But it's the fear thing again.
Yes, I'm gaining perspective. I'm not happy with the insights I'm gaining, but true knowledge isn't just learning about what we want to learn, it's about learning what we NEED to know.

I'm resisting the urge to fly off the broom handle here and send an angry email. Watch and wait. The best thing to do.
My mom tells me she has a "feeling" that I'll go out there, and everything will be fine. I'm not so sure anymore, and in fact have ceased all travel preparations.


Thanks, Astrea

 

[Astraea]

true knowledge isn't just learning about what we want to learn, it's about learning what we NEED to know.

So true, and one of the hardest lessons in life (about everything,eh?)!

I had a taiji teacher once who said that the only time a person can be thrown is when he has stepped outside his own center; if he leans forward or backward in a movement, he can be grabbed by the arms or have his legs kicked out from under him. Something similar seems to true in relationships. The more centered in yourself you remain, unclouded as much as possible by anger and hurt feelings, the clearer will be your vision - and this will also help the man to identify his own primary motivations.

 

[DarkElectric]

Thanks, Astrea, for the comforting words
I feel so far off centre right now that I'm starting to wonder which direction centre is in.

I need to gain some solid footing here, and some peace of mind.
He hasn't sent a response to last night's email. Not a good sign.

I'm not going to send another one.


Hugs,
DE

 

[DarkElectric]

Breaking update:The phone call.

Mercury Vs Saturn...or the saga continues.

I just received a phone call from him.
He told me that as he was driving his daughter home from school yesterday, they got on the subject of her little friend's parent's divorce. She said to him 'It's so good you and mommy aren't getting a divorce". He was gobsmacked, and said,
"Um, yeah, yeah, that's good" And changed the subject. He was so freaked out by her comment. He said he feels like he blew the perfect opportunity to discuss the subject in a meaningful way, but that visceral fear enveloped him, and he didn't know how to react.

He doesn't know what to do now. He doesn't want to be married to that woman. He doesn't know how to tell his daughter. If he were to stay with that woman, he'd be living a lie, and the kid would see through that the minute she was old enough to realistically understand the concept of dating, and adult relationships. Which will be really soon. She's 12, but she's a "mature" 12, meaning she has biologically entered puberty. That changes a lot of things.

It is all about the daughter. He's sick and tired of the wife. He so wants to see the back of her. He was discussing how much he can't stand her with his mother yesterday. His mum said that if he wanted to divorce 'her" she'd support him fully in that decision ( She doesn't like 'her' either, this I know.)

I told him that he needs to live his own truth. Living a lie is no way to live, because the longer one lives a lie, the worse it is when the truth comes out. And the truth always comes out. The truth may be painful, unexpected, unpleasant, but it's always better than a lie. So I told him he needs to live his own truth, and that I'm not going to tell him how to do that.

He needs to decide for himself what his own truth is. He realises that the child will grow up, and when she does, if he stays with that woman, he will be sitting across a table from her, the kid'll be grown up and gone, he'll be hating every minute of his life, and wondering what happened to me. Because I also told him I won't put up with a situation where I'm kept hanging on, lonely nights, year after year.

I told him I'm patient, but my patience isn't inexhaustable. A little patience goes a long way but too much goes nowhere. I also told him that there comes a time in everyone's life when they have to face their fears, and confront them, otherwise fear will continue to rule.

He's so terrified that the kid will be destroyed emotionally. He's scared to death that her grades will go down, her sports will suffer, and that she'll "Go Bad" because of it. I don't think that will happen, I think it'll be rough at first, but kids adapt very well. I love her too. I don't want to hurt her either.

I have a different opinion- I think that if the daughter finds finds out her "Happy Family" is a lie, she'll be resentful, angry, and probably feel a modicom of guilt, because she'll feel that the dad she loves so much is unhappy because he continued to live a lie "For Her", and that it's all her fault he stayed in a miserable marriage. The truth is always better. People get used to the truth. They feel betrayed by lies. Even if they're 12, they feel betrayed by lies.

I feel that the truth will be tough to handle at first, but she'll adjust when she realises that this is about her dad and mom not loving each other any more, and that it doesn't mean that anyone will stop loving her.

I told him I understood that he's in a very difficult situation, and that I love him. He told me he loves me too. I believe him.

He's going to call me again tonight to discuss things further.
When he does, again, I will advise him to live his own truth.

Astrea, you said that the Mercury/Saturn could be something on the inner plane- I think that he's come to that inner plane, that point of searching his soul. He also said he'd have a lot more time to discuss things with me tomorrow. Interesting. The 17th. Whatever we discuss, I'm sure, he'll be soul searching and discovering things about himself, whatever those things are.

 

[Minderwiz]

I've been quite busy today but have just been catching up on the thread. Astraea's advice seems to be very good. I'd just add that I don't think it's a good idea to let fly at him via email. For your relationship to have any chance, he has to be given an opportunity to act for himself. Only he can sort out his problems. IF he chooses to do so. then you may have a chance together. If you try and force the issue or 'shout' at him, you are (in his eye) acting like his wife and he is more likely to opt for the status quo.

Your decision appears to be how much time you are prepared to give him to sort out things at his end, without trying to force him to act. It's tempting to say that if he loves you he will, of his own volition, honour his pledges to you. However life is often more complicated than that. At the moment you are within your previously agreed time scale, he may still do what you both agreed within that time scale. Your decision is how far beyond that point are you willing to wait if he fails to do so. Neither I nor Astraea, nor anyone else can take that decision for you but it is something that you will have to face and in the not to distant future, if he does not act.

I am not optimistic that he will act but no one will be more pleased than me if he does.

Again I wish you the best of luck in this situation.

Edited to add:

Our posts crossed so I've now read your update. Taking his story on face value (and I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve him) I think that is an awfully big spanner in your plans.

Yes he has to sort out his own situation and he does have to be honest to himself, but he also has to do the best thing for his daughter and I don't envy him the decision he has to take.

I'm not sure at what age she is legally entitled to leave home and set up for herself (here it is 16), or at what age she becomes an 'adult' in law (here it is 18) but that could well mean that she will be a direct part of his life for the next 6 years or more. He has to work out what will happen in terms of custody if he goes for a divorce, he has to work our how she will cope with that situation (he's an adult, she isn't). To be slightly brutal, she's his daughter, not yours and he has a duty to her as her father, that might take precedence of his duty to you. As I say I don't envy him, as the father of a daughter (albeit one who is now 30 and engaged) I have some sympathy with him.

This may prove the catalyst to him telling his daughter or it may mean that he decides he has to stay put for the time being, or even till she is old enough to be independent. Using UK law as an example, at 16 she could decide to live with you and him, no matter what her mother wants - is he going to wait for her to get near the equivalent US age or is he going to decide he can't live with his wife, even if it means a risk of losing his daughter. That's the decision that has now been forced to the front of his conscious. This is no longer a 'fairy story' romance, it's potential to be messy has hit him.

 

[DarkElectric]

Thanks, Minderwiz,
I'm just going to stick to my guns when he calls later, and continue to tell him he has to live his own truth.

He does. He has to.

Whatever that truth is, he has to live it.

And I can't hang around waiting. I'm so tired of false starts and lonely nights.

I don't want to be with anybody else but him, however I'm not going to encourage living lies, living in fear, or continuing to be a co- conspirator in deceit. And if he wants me to enable him to do that, in good conscience, I cannot. He wants to be with me. I can hear it in his voice. He loves me. He doesn't want to lose me. but I can't continue to live like this, and as he's coming to realise, he can't either. He has to make his own choices here. He's being handed a perfect opportunity for an essential life lesson here. Either way, he'll learn something, and so will I.

More than anything else I want him to choose to go forward with our plan. But he may not.

*sigh*

 

[Astraea]

I am not optimistic that he will act but no one will be more pleased than me if he does.

Again I wish you the best of luck in this situation.

Same here.

Something else occurs to me in relation to Saturn, and it might not be anything that's even remotely within the scope of your thinking or willingness to entertain - but I'll put it out there, just in case.

Among other things, Saturn represents the maturation process. As both you and the man are adults (let's give all the characters names so that we don't need to keep saying "the man," "the wife," "the child" - how about Dick, Jane and Sally? ), perhaps there is another solution to your dilemma that doesn't involve divorce - for the time being, anyway. Maybe Saturn opposing Mercury can be understood as the ripening of a thought process.

You might consider the possibility of having a long-term, non-exclusive relationship with Dick that includes the possibility of commitment at a time when Sally is older and Dick feels that she'll be able to tolerate a split. Custody will not be such a crucial issue in a few years, since judges generally give children of 14 or 15 the opportunity to choose which parent they wish to live with. As a lawyer, Dick knows the difficulties he faces regarding custody as things stand now.

Many long-distance relationships work quite well, even though they don't fit within conventional molds. This is between you and Dick, and as adults you can forge your own path.

Again, you might not be comfortable even considering something like this - but there might be other ways for you and Dick to "think outside the box" that will ease some of the pressures for now.