connecting pips to majors

[Melanchollic]

That's very interesting. Just picking out one sequence to see if Im reading correctly... is this chart drawing a connection between Hanged Man, Ten of Cups and Seven of Coins?

Im not sure what "Hierarchy of Dignity" means

Yes. The Hanged Man would connect with the 10 Cups, 7 Coins, and 10 Batons.

Dignity refers to how strong or weak a card is, or how 'Good' or 'Bad' a card is. So, this model makes the A of Cup the most dignified card, meaning it is making the most of it's (theoretical) attributes, and the A of Swords is of the poorest dignity, meaning it is not putting it's attributes to good use and will behave most poorly.

The chart might be a useful tool to correlate how 'good' or 'bad' a given card is, though I'd be hesitant to use it as an indicator of influence or correlation of specific divinatory meanings. (Though the Ace of Cups' image of a Monstrance would certainly correlate it to the 'Christ Triumphant' image on the World.)

 

[Bernice]

I love the clear simplicity & historical bias of Melanchollics' methods........

However, because playing cards preceeded the trumps (78 card TdM), I'm not inclined to assign any relationship between the two. For divination I consider the trumps to be 'out there', describing some worldly or social condition, other people etc.

But if the Ace-10 + Trumps works for you for divining, then go with it!


Bee

 

[kwaw]

However, because playing cards preceeded the trumps (78 card TdM), I'm not inclined to assign any relationship between the two.

One could read it another way, because the 22 allegorical figures were added to the already allegorised playing cards, they may be read as an allegorical extension to them. They are related in that the one inspired or led to the creation of the other; and it is perfectly feasible that the allegorical figures were created with due regard to a way in which the playing cards had already been allegorised. More likely I feel, than that they were created ad hoc and with complete disregard to that to which they were being added.

 

[Bernice]

One could read it another way, because the 22 allegorical figures were added to the already allegorised playing cards, they may be read as an allegorical extension to them. They are related in that the one inspired or led to the creation of the other; and it is perfectly feasible that the allegorical figures were created with due regard to a way in which the playing cards had already been allegorised. More likely I feel, than that they were created ad hoc and with complete disregard to that to which they were being added.

(My bold) = I take your point . That's an acceptable valid approach.

I also suspect that the trumps were, "..created ad hoc and with complete disregard to that to which they were being added.".


Bee

 

[Herzog]

this model makes the A of Cup the most dignified card, meaning it is making the most of it's (theoretical) attributes, and the A of Swords is of the poorest dignity, meaning it is not putting it's attributes to good use and will behave most poorly.

"poorly" or "making the most of" when correlated to its specific Trump? So the Ace of Swords correlated with The Fool indicates among other things, a mindset that is "naive", "ignorant" or "free from strife"?

 

[Bernice]

I don't think the suit of Swords is nescessarily related to the Mind.........

Have you looked at the Index for this forum? Mels' method is a complete system which also covers how the 'elements' were originally understood. An eye-opener


Bee x

 

[Herzog]

I don't think the suit of Swords is nescessarily related to the Mind

This scares me


Yes... I read through most of the index. Some systems are more advanced than others. Mel's is definitely on the high end of advanced for a beginner like myself I'm a visual kind of guy. I'm looking for the "poetry" behind Marseilles and to apply it to readings

 

[JSNYC]

Any method is acceptable, if you find it useful.

That said, I'm not comfortable with the idea of trying to map 22 trump cards to 4x10 pip cards. Even if there were 10 (or 40) trumps, why would one do this? I dabbled with this idea for a while, but when it comes right down to it, I've never seen a system that seems anything other than arbitrary in assigning correspondences between the cards.....

....but right now, all systems seem pretty arbitrary to me

I completely agree.

However, SunChariot does this, and when I heard her explain it I was quite interested. It almost seems to mimic Waite's pattern for the minor arcana. And in your system's post, ThinBuddha, where you mentioned your aversion to RWS, that broke-down my last reservation to Marseilles. So I know I will want to learn Marseilles at some point, and since all the other systems I have seen for reading non-scenic pips, seem even more arbitrary and hokey, I am still paying attention to this system as it seems the most reasonable...

And why do people do that? Because some people see two identical numbers and then seem to think that means they naturally go together!

However, because playing cards preceeded the trumps (78 card TdM), I'm not inclined to assign any relationship between the two.

Agreed again, but I think a loose correlation may be helpful...

I think I would only try to make assignments to 2 - 10, and possibly the courts, but the actual meaning would come from elsewhere. For me, the majors would be more like a mnemonic, indicating the nature of the card.

 

[Moonbow]

Its a good method to try out HerzogIsGod, and a great way to get you looking at the cards without relating them to the Waite method. If nothing else, and you decide to stick with this method (and there is nothing wrong with that), its a start to you thinking about the Marseilles cards themselves.

I don't now see the Swords as necessarily relating to the mind, though sometimes that relationship still exists in a reading, but elements are not part of the Mareilles deck unless you choose them. Another bit of food for thought is to think of the implement... the Sword, so what does that say to you? It can kill, it is also used for celebration.....

 

[Herzog]

Its a good method to try out HerzogIsGod, and a great way to get you looking at the cards without relating them to the Waite method. If nothing else, and you decide to stick with this method (and there is nothing wrong with that), its a start to you thinking about the Marseilles cards themselves.

I don't now see the Swords as necessarily relating to the mind, though sometimes that relationship still exists in a reading, but elements are not part of the Mareilles deck unless you choose them. Another bit of food for thought is to think of the implement... the Sword, so what does that say to you? It can kill, it is also used for celebration.....

Thanks... I see what you mean about the swords and yes, I do not want to impose the Waite method... to me this would defeat the whole purpose. There is a beauty, or shall I say "purity" about the pips. I feel there are great messages hidden within, just have to spend some time working them out

Ive been reading Jodorowsky's book which I personally find extremely well thought out. I need to choose one method to get me thinking, as you say. Others will follow, I'm sure. The temptation is great to learn everything I could all at once but I do not want get discouraged...