Crowley and bestiality?

[Zephyros]

Thanks Daaave. I must admit that of all the stories I've read about his life, this is among the most disturbing. I suppose Cefalù was a laboratory of sorts, where all kinds of things were essayed, and then abandoned if they didn't work. History would see him quite differently if this episode was set down in his "official" writings.

 

[Daaave]

Thanks to Roppo for the page ref. - otherwise I'd probably still be looking-

I agree- it is certainly disturbing.

 

[ravenest]

I am sure there are other posts about it here somewhere. I think there is a link to other stuff about Mary Butts - I seem to remember something about her motivations being exposed ... somewhere. Perhaps posted by Aeon 418? In the 'old days' a post title like that would have invoked him ... maybe he is on holidays ... or bored with the continuall 'scandal' ?

Maybe the Mod knows where it is? deffinatly remember a bit of stuff about it here somewhere.

I notice that, in the quote list above, there is no ref to AC writing about it? I thought he would have cashed in on that one. I cant remember what he wrote about it in his autobiography. - Havent read it for ages.

Always got the impression that the 'abbey' was a 'seedy' place, even from the photos. Bad facilities, dirty ... they didnt seem to get much together.

I have had expereince in similar situations ... seen it go both ways; a not very together idealistic 'magic' rural crash pad with little facilities or consideration for practical neccessities, anti-social, pissing of of the neighbours; but also a long term more practical situation - renovation of buidings and services (water supply, drainage), food production, 'magical' study programs, outreach and assistance program, social consideration and integration.) Takes years. - Depends what your motivation is I suppose? (no goats in either situation)

Anyway, back to the goat. I'm going to defend the goat. Goat has an interesting history all the way down from the ancient sacrifical goat and the social dynamic of the scapegoat right up to the two polarities of goat (observe Devil goat in Waite and Thoth Tarots) up to the present - where allusions to strange things with goats sinisterical and occult occasionally abound.

Why has the goat been getting such a bad press? What is the symbolism and dynamic here?

Interestingly its not the goat himself, but what we human do with the Goat ... we worship the goat (apparently) and do unspeakible things with it. (I'd tell you but they are unspeakable ... - see how good that works - now I can leave it up to your imagination)

Basically goats represent the stubborn, non-conformist, individual. They are a herd animal, but nothing like the sheep, which is MUCH less intelligent and easily led along.

Familiar with the image of Jesus as a shepard tending his flock? Thats us - the sheep.
'They' dont want us to be like goats. They want us to be like sheep.

I'm for the goat and the individual - I cant be part of the hive, I am not like that I guess that makes me a goaty troublemaker. And this has nothing to do with the fact that I am born in the year of the goat

 

[Laura Borealis]

Why has the goat been getting such a bad press? What is the symbolism and dynamic here?

I think goats are great. I've been around quite a few. Almost all nannies and kids, though. I LOVE goat kids, they are fearless and so much fun! You bend down to scratch one around the little horn-buds and another jumps on your back.

The association of male goats with sexuality is well-deserved, though. They exude pure lust, I swear. I was grateful for the stout wire between them and me. Granted I've only seen a couple, and they were there for stud (this was at a goat cheese farm) but damn. It was like a miasma of goaty sexuality hung around them.

 

[ravenest]

Not to mention the smell ... e eew!

 

[Laura Borealis]

There was that...

 

[shells]

...not to mention the ummm...body fluid they cover their beard with to entice the ladies:0

 

[Aeon418]

I was asked to write a commentary, of sorts, to a film on YouTube called "The Wickedest Man in the World."

Is that the Channel 4 commisioned, Masters of Darkness, documentary with someone in it called Aaron Paramor? I watched that when it was first broadcast on UK TV years ago. It must be over a decade at least.

I must admit to not having read any biographies yet, and the internet is of no use in this case.

IMO a good biography (or several) is required reading for anyone interested in Crowley's work.

So what did happen with the goat?

Here's the entry in Richard Kaczyski's, PERDURABO: The Life of Aleister Crowley, (p.373):

Reading Herodotus' account of an Egyptian priestess copulating with a goat in the course of a religious ceremony, Crowley pondered the occult significance of these "prodigies." The unions of humans and animals was certainly sacred to ancient cultures: the Egyptians venerated gods who had human bodies and animal's haeds. Similar ideas appeared in Greek mythology, with the bull-headed Minotaur and the story of Leda and the swan. Other ancient religions around the world told similar tales. Thus Crowley suggested such a working. Leah agreed to act as prietess. They got a goat, and the Scarlet Woman knelt naked on the ground, presenting herself to the indifferent beast. Crowley tried coaxing the goat to mount Leah, but the animal failed to respond to a human female. To save the ritual from utter failure, Crowley took the goat's place with Leah, as he recorded in his diary: "I atoned for the young He-goat at considerable length."

What is that meaning behind this incident? In the absence of Crowley's diary we are left to speculate. Was it part of the progressive unfolding of Crowley's initiation into the grade of Ipsissimus 10=1? Was he testing the devotion of Leah Hirsig? Was it a stunt. A practical joke? Was it designed to shock Mary Butts and Cecil Maitland out of their normalacy with a kind of left-hand Tantra taboo breaking?

 

[Aeon418]

From Wikipedia: After Raoul Loveday died from drinking contaminated water at Cefalù (the film attributes the cause of his death to drinking the blood of a sacrificed cat), Mary Butts reported in one of her journals about Hirsig that a he-goat was induced to copulate with her at the Abbey of Thelema (an account corroborated by Crowley himself in an unpublished passage in one of his diaries).

ETA: To be sure, this was a bitter account from Loveday's widow after returning home, so this isn't the most objective of accounts, but Wikipedia says this is confirmed in a diary, and the source cited is Perdurabo by Kaczinsky.

Loveday's widow was Betty May. Mary Butts had left the abbey before she and Raoul arrived.

 

[Aeon418]

Perhaps posted by Aeon 418? In the 'old days' a post title like that would have invoked him ... maybe he is on holidays ... or bored with the continuall 'scandal' ?

This 'old goat' got bored of scandal years ago.