Did Shakespeare play tarot?

Amleth

Rosanne said:
What would 'he is the card or calendar of Gentry' mean?

Card means the "pattern" or "map" of gentry. It could also be read as "chart." The idea is that Laertes is someone whom others would follow to become gentry. Laertes would provide the map, or chart, or pattern.

Calendar is probably used based on its Latin root meaning of "account book," which gives Ostrick saying that Laertes is the "full account" of gentry.

Both words are rather ambiguous, and that is probably intentional from Shakespeare, in keeping with the affected style of the speech in that passage. It isn't supposed to make easy sense, when Ostrick blathers. But what Ostrick is basically trying to say, is that Laertes provides the "chart" and "account" for others, if they want to be proper gentlemen, too.

The word "card" had another connotation in Elizabethan times, that's probably worth mention. Queen Elizabeth issued so-called "cards" of herself, which showed how to represent her in published illustrations. It was to insure she was depicted in a flattering way in popular publications, and in depictions that weren't directly supervised by the court. Other members of the nobility followed suit, ahem, and issued cards for illustrating themselves, as well. So card with the meaning "pattern of a person" had extra significance in those days.

Patterns for artwork were used pretty often then, just as today, even for major artworks. A nice example is a "procession" painting of Queen Elizabeth I from about 1600, that shows her being borne along by her courtiers. It's easy to tell, about the courtiers, that their legs have been painted from patterns, and are not their actual legs. Several of them have identical legs, except for the color of the stockings. Also, an odd thing about it, in some cases you'll see what looks like a right foot on the ground, but follow it up, and it's a left leg.
 

Teheuti

Dancing Bear said:
I have no idea whether he actually used them but he was definately aware of them, But i would think his enviroment would suggest he more than likely did...
I don't think there is any question whether Shakespeare was familiar with playing cards--he was. The question is whether he knew anything about Tarot cards.

Dante references every single trump title and image and many in ways that seem straight out of the cards, yet he wrote long before the Tarot came into existence. Of course his works were among the most popular in the culture from which the Tarot emerged.

Mary
 

baba-prague

Teheuti said:
I don't think there is any question whether Shakespeare was familiar with playing cards--he was. The question is whether he knew anything about Tarot cards.

Dante references every single trump title and image and many in ways that seem straight out of the cards, yet he wrote long before the Tarot came into existence. Of course his works were among the most popular in the culture from which the Tarot emerged.

Mary
I think what's being claimed here is even more specific than that - that Hamlet specifically references the VS. As I still don't see any evidence for this that convinces me in the slightest - though I would be very interested if such evidence did exist (it's a lovely and romantic idea) - I will, at this point, exit from this thread - pursued by a bear of course... :)
 

venicebard

Teheuti said:
Dante references every single trump title and image and many in ways that seem straight out of the cards, yet he wrote long before the Tarot came into existence. Of course his works were among the most popular in the culture from which the Tarot emerged.

Mary
And he is a much more likely source (or at least background rationale) for the trump symbols selected than those 'Triumphs' of that other Italian. But as for 'long before' tarot (emphasis mine), only if one take tarot as a late version of cards, which I'm not sure I do.

I intend to research Shakespeare's use of classic Keltic bardic images, since he originated not far from Wales, and the more of course that he ('the Bard') crosses paths with the bards the more his work would interlace with Tarot of Marseilles (in my appraisal of the latter, that is). Surely he had read Dante.
 

Amleth

baba-prague said:
I think what's being claimed here is even more specific than that - that Hamlet specifically references the VS. ...

Yes.

... As I still don't see any evidence for this that convinces me in the slightest ...

Judgement of the connection requires detailed knowledge both of the cards, and of the Hamlet dialogue. Hardly anybody knows both, and in the long history of Hamlet commentary, nobody has even thought to check, until now, as far as I can find.
 

Amleth

venicebard said:
I intend to research Shakespeare's use of classic Keltic bardic images, since he originated not far from Wales, and the more of course that he ('the Bard') crosses paths with the bards the more his work would interlace with Tarot of Marseilles (in my appraisal of the latter, that is). Surely he had read Dante.

I hope you'll post on the Keltic material you find.

As to Dante, there was no known English translation of Dante available in Elizabethan England. Whether Shakespeare could read Italian is still in dispute. In sum, it's unknown whether he read Dante.
 

Ross G Caldwell

Amleth said:
As to Dante, there was no known English translation of Dante available in Elizabethan England. Whether Shakespeare could read Italian is still in dispute. In sum, it's unknown whether he read Dante.

He could surely read French though? The first French translation of the entire Comedia was done by Balthasar Grangier and published in 1596-1597. Kind of a tight chronology, if Shakespeare used it in any way.

Apparently the first English translations were done in the late 18th century, with the first complete one in 1802.

http://www.library.uiuc.edu/rbx/exhibitions/Dante/translation.html

(see numbers 26, 28 and 29)
 

venicebard

Amleth said:
I hope you'll post on the Keltic material you find.
The mere fact that you are interested shall prompt me to proceed in that direction immediately, though results, of course, may 'creep on from day to day to the last syllable of recorded time', or, who knows, I may stumble on a treasure trove immediately! (I wish I had kept both of my dad's concordences, not just one.)
As to Dante, there was no known English translation of Dante available in Elizabethan England. Whether Shakespeare could read Italian is still in dispute. In sum, it's unknown whether he read Dante.
Ross G Caldwell said:
He could surely read French though? The first French translation of the entire Comedia was done by Balthasar Grangier and published in 1596-1597. Kind of a tight chronology, if Shakespeare used it in any way.
If it had been in Latin, at least scholars would have acquired it, and I have no doubt Shakespeare had Latin (more likely than Greek?), from his masterful use of all the minor figures from that age (chiasmus, etc.).
 

Teheuti

Ross G Caldwell said:
He could surely read French though? The first French translation of the entire Comedia was done by Balthasar Grangier and published in 1596-1597.
I'm not suggesting that Shakespeare read Dante. My understanding, tho', is that Dante's works soon became so much a part of the culture that the dialect he used was a major source for the Italian language we now know. Much of his work, often drawn from common philosophical allegories, became the cliches of the next several centuries. These allegorical cliches appear in the V-S deck.

Mary
 

Ross G Caldwell

Teheuti said:
I'm not suggesting that Shakespeare read Dante. My understanding, tho', is that Dante's works soon became so much a part of the culture that the dialect he used was a major source for the Italian language we now know. Much of his work, often drawn from common philosophical allegories, became the cliches of the next several centuries. These allegorical cliches appear in the V-S deck.

Mary

I didn't think you were suggesting it. I'm just adding fuel to Amleth's fire, if he wants to pursue it.

I'm firmly in the camp of the unconvinced that Shakespeare either knew a copy of the V-S deck, or drew his imagery from any sort of tarot deck. Or Dante.

But I'll probably take the time to read a good argument otherwise.

Ross