Help with Neptune in composite

[Ronia]

Hi guys, I'm trying to learn some relationship dynamics. I'd like to ask you about Neptune in a composite chart. I'm very careful and even uneasy with Neptune in relationship charts because of the possible deception and here, in this chart, Sun (in the 4th house) trines Neptune (in the 8th house) but because the Sun is conjunct both Saturn and Mercury in the 4th house, respectively Neptune is trined by Saturn and Mercury too. I am wondering if Saturn and Mercury are able to add seriousness, so to speak. Meaning, when I see Sun-Neptune I'm a bit worried that this may be a relationship that's based on illusions. How and if Saturn and Mercury supporting the Sun in the 4th are going to play regarding Neptune?

Neptune is also opposed by a concjunction of Mars (on the cusp of the 2nd) and Jupiter (in the 2nd house). It makes me think of some money/possessions issues... On the other hand, could it be that this conjunction in the house of values balances Neptune in the 8th?

Thanks for any help!

 

[Minderwiz]

Hi guys, I'm trying to learn some relationship dynamics. I'd like to ask you about Neptune in a composite chart. I'm very careful and even uneasy with Neptune in relationship charts because of the possible deception and here, in this chart, Sun (in the 4th house) trines Neptune (in the 8th house) but because the Sun is conjunct both Saturn and Mercury in the 4th house, respectively Neptune is trined by Saturn and Mercury too. I am wondering if Saturn and Mercury are able to add seriousness, so to speak. Meaning, when I see Sun-Neptune I'm a bit worried that this may be a relationship that's based on illusions. How and if Saturn and Mercury supporting the Sun in the 4th are going to play regarding Neptune?

Neptune is also opposed by a concjunction of Mars (on the cusp of the 2nd) and Jupiter (in the 2nd house). It makes me think of some money/possessions issues... On the other hand, could it be that this conjunction in the house of values balances Neptune in the 8th?

Thanks for any help!

The first thing to do (and you may already have done this) is to look at the natal charts of the two people concerned. This will allow you to

- have a good understanding of their characters and also the way in which they will approach relationships in general and the sort of people that in general they will get on with

- be able to look at their charts in comparison and see in much more specific terms how they will inter-relate with each other.

That should give you a good idea whether there is the likelihood of deception, misunderstandings, inability to see the situation clearly, etc.

Composite charts are complementary to this analysis, they were never meant to replace it, they may enable you to see which of the issues that you have identified in your natal readings are likely to emphasised in the relationship, but they can't introduce something that isn't already there.

In terms of Neptune specifically;

Does Neptune closely aspect planets (not outers) and angles in either chart, taken on its own?

Does Neptune in one chart closely aspect a planet (not an outer) or angle in the other?

If there is no close links to Neptune found by examining the above, then I'd say that you can safely ignore the Neptune aspect you have found.

To the extent that there are Neptunian influences found, then (and only then) the composite chart might help you further the interpretations in the natal and synastry work.

BUT

Firstly keep 'close' as close as possible - three degrees absolute maximum and better still one degree.

Secondly, Modern approaches tend to emphasise the outers and oddly, their malign natures. Considering that traditional astrology is criticised for looking at 'bad' as well as 'good' influences, it always strikes me as odd that in the tradition there are two malefics (Saturn and Mars) and all the rest bar Mercury (which is neutral on his own) are benefic - a 4 - 2 split in favour of 'good'. Modern Astrology adds Pluto, Neptune and Uranus and almost always looks for the worst in them, giving a 4 - 5 split between 'good' and 'bad' It's no wonder you're concerned about the 'malign' nature of Neptune, given it's general interpretations in Modern Astrology.

In practice, I suggest you treat the outers with caution and assume that the major emphasis will be from the traditional planets and the outers may in certain circumstances add a little extra dimension.

However, I'm something of a heretic when it comes to the outers, and so I've actually put off posting and waited for someone else to respond to you. No doubt someone will now leap in and tell you to be very afraid of this aspect [please ignore them]

 

[Ronia]

Thanks for helping! I'll go back to both natal and synastry charts now but I know there ae angles with neptune and I bet they were with Mars, Sun..at least. Both people ahve been born pretty close to each other and they share a couple of things. I'll add the aspects here and my (very unprofessional) thoughts if you or someone else wants to chip in.

I also think that Neptune may add positives too. I just want to learn when I should be careful and when an aspect looks more promising. I'll be back when I look at the charts. Thank you!

 

[Ronia]

Here is what I got:

Woman: grand trine Neptune-Saturn-Jupiter in fire Sag-Leo-Aries. I guess this could be she's quite a dreamer but with Saturn in the picture is it balancing? Neptune is square her Venus and square her Mercury. I think she is quite unrealistic in love.

Man: Neptune (in Sag again) opposite Sun and opposite Mercury - conjunct in Gemini. Neptune trine his ascendant. Now, the latter is related to his profession I think, he is an artist. But the opposition with Sun+Mercury may signify a dreamer too. On the other hand, I read well placed Mercury (and this one is very strong) may balance the picture. I'm confused. Saturn is trine his Mars and square his Sun. The man also has a conjunction of Mars and Venus in Taurus which somehow doesn't look deceptive to me... The bull is quite down to earth... But his Neptune is in the 5th house which is quite possible to deceit him in love, isn't it?

Synastry:
His Neptune falls in her 11th house, her Neptune - in his 4th house. His Neptune is sextile her Mercury, square her Venus, trine her Jupiter. Is this square to Venus same deceptive as in natal charts? Looks like he lets her imagination flow but not necessarily for the better.

Her Neptune is opposite his Sun (deception again)? and sextile his Moon. Trine his Jupiter and his Ascendant. What makes this difficult to me is to separate Neptune's positive side - romantic, inspiring, giving/receiving from the pure deception.

Overall, I think these two may actually have only a dream... But I'm far from sure.

 

[Ronia]

Oh, but I reduced the orbit (I didn't know how before) to 4 degrees (an extent I know) and it all disappeared! No grand trine for the woman, only one sextile with Pluto. Man has the same (born close to each other). The man still has the opposition to his Mercury though and Neptune trine his Ascendant. But, here, knowing he is an artist, wouldn't the Ascendant mean how he behaves/looks to other people too?

The synastry with reduced orbit still has his Neptune sextile her Mercury and square her Venus and trine her Jupiter.

Her Neptune oppose his Sun, sextile his Moon and trine Jupiter, and square his Saturn.

I further reduced the orbit to 2 degrees and the above is still relevant.

Now how do I decipher from here? How to start and what to look at most?

Otherwise, they seem to have a couple of good fits - trine between Venuses, trine Venus-Mars, her Sun sextile his Saturn (stability?), trine between both Mercury, conjunct her Mercury- his Moon... It looked like theer was appeal and romance + good communication. But with Neptune in the picture I don't know what to say.

 

[Minderwiz]

Thanks for the additional info.

If Neptune is not an important factor in either chart, taken on their own, then I'd tend to ignore it - though I have little doubt that others would disagree. So you have the synastry aspects left. Again I'd tend to be very conservative here (but others might not) - First question, are we simply observing a generational relationship? You might check the duration of these aspects with an ephemeris to see how long they lasted and whether they still exist at say, 1 degree. If you've still got something, try removing the sextiles and see if anything remains.

From a personal point of view, I'd look heavily at the traditional planets and modify then interpretation if I got a Neptune aspect of within a degree - However if you feel more comfortable with 2 degrees then try the following:

From your natal analysis, Neptune plays on major role for either person.

From which we might conclude that neither is deliberately a deceptive type either to others or to themselves (and deception is not the only interpretation for Neptune).

That means that either you've got a generational factor or if the aspects are very close, in your synastry then cConsider which houses Neptune is in, and which houses the aspected planets are in and also which houses do the aspected planets rule.

Without site of the charts, I can only throw out some ideas for you to consider:

Consider the condition of the aspected planets, by sign and house and aspects from other planets. That is consider the situation without Neptune and what it says about the relationship and then ask how far Neptune might affect your conclusions. With Neptune it's difficult to form a judgement by sign (indeed some, including me. would argue it's impossible) but it's place by house might well help. If it's angular in one chart the aspect will be stronger than if it was succeedent and that in turn will be stronger than if it were cadent. So an angular Neptune is more noteworthy than a cadent Neptune or Neptune in the eighth or second.

How prominent are the aspected planets in their respective charts - if Neptune and aspected planet are tucked away it's not going to be as intrusive as if both are angular.

Finally are the aspected planets important to the relationship or are they dealing with other things. For example I his Jupiter rules his tenth, then he might be deceiving work so that he can have time with her - that is the deception is not within the relationship but from the relationship to the 'outside' world.

In other words keep an open mind till you've tied it down to an intra-relationship feature and you're sure it's not simply generational. Observation and talking to the two, can help here.

Don't over-emphasise the outers in a relationship analysis, the chances are always there that the two share a generational dimension. So do your analysis based on the traditionals and then if the outers clearly have a prominent position turn your attention to them.

 

[Ronia]

Thank you for all this info! I'll get back to the charts and try to follow these steps. I have only one question regarding this:

"From your natal analysis, Neptune plays on major role for either person.

From which we might conclude that neither is deliberately a deceptive type either to others or to themselves (and deception is not the only interpretation for Neptune)."

How do we know if one is a liar or not then? I mean, how do I know if he or she is not to be trusted if I don't look at Neptune? Is it that because this Neptune influence is part of their personalities, we conclude they are not going to deceit one another on purpose?

 

[Ronia]

The chart is here if you want to check it out, that's their synastry: https://picasaweb.google.com/simplyaven/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCL2t3tyrhJLUigE#5638268890136476434

Angular was on the IC, MC, etc. right? No, Neptune is on the cusp of the 5th (him) and in the 11th (her).

I'll go and check the other things you suggested now.

 

[Minderwiz]

How do we know if one is a liar or not then? I mean, how do I know if he or she is not to be trusted if I don't look at Neptune? Is it that because this Neptune influence is part of their personalities, we conclude they are not going to deceit one another on purpose?

I think we need to stop and begin again from the beginning!

Have you any reason to believe that lying and deception are actively going on? Let's call the two A and B. Do you suspect A of actively lying to B or are concerned that A might be lying to B? Or are you just 'interested' to know if A has the capacity to lie and deceive B?

The second is an issue of 'potential', which may never be realised, A might lie but could choose not to. So you might identify the 'potential' but not the fact

The former is much more difficult. It requires both the potential to lie and that that potential is realised. Whilst you cannot ever be sure from simple Astrological evidence, there might well be further information contained in a solar return or other predictive technique which shows that the potential is heightened and therefore is more likely to translate into reality.

Either way the answer is in A's natal chart and its derivatives, rather than in a composite chart, which tells you about the relationship as an entity. In this you might learn about self deception or delusion on the part of the relationship or of the relationship deluding or deceiving others.

Nextly, Neptune is not what you should be looking at, at least not primarily. Neptune, if it has any meaning here, is one of delusion or deception through giving false impressions or false understanding, rather than by deliberate lying.

Lying is Mercury and probably acting in association with Mars, or Venus (or both). To indicate the potential to lie, Mercury needs to be essentially weak - such as peregrine, or in detriment or fall and to be badly positioned tin the chart - say in one of the four places of aversion - 12th, 2nd, 8th, 6th. Lying is not the only way in which an ill-disposed Mercury can manifest, gossiping, sarcasm, constantly putting others down, boasting and being a general busybody are other effects and of course not all manifest equally.

An ill disposed Mercury linked to an ill disposed or weak Mars, may accentuate this, as will a link to an ill disposed Venus, the latter would be especially relevant to affairs, gambling, drinking and other pursuits where A might want to lie about their activities.

Now an analysis here will give some indication of the potential but whether it shows up in action will depend on the strength of the potential and a suitable trigger. Astrologically that will show up in predictive techniques. Assuming that the potential to lie is there at a higher level than normal, we would want to see something in a predictive technique that shows this potential will be triggered and that it will be directed at A's relationship (rather than to friends, or other family members for example).

Clearly judgement requires some care both in the consideration of indicators and the matching of indicators to character or temperament plus observational evidence

 

[Ronia]

Ouch. I'm getting more and more confused. No, of course I have no reason to suspect lie, it's just... let's say prevention. Because I saw the nice parts of the synastry (and theer are nice parts), I then decided to try and learn how to find the negative ones. The tricky part of this is a/I have very little experience and synastry is even harder than natal and b/ most of the planets have both negative and positive sides. So, what I'm trying to learn now is how to distinguish the positive from negative side of the same planet, how to see if it will manifest as a benefic or as a malefic.

I may be totally wrong but I somehow see this synastry as friendship on the side of the man and love on the side of the woman. It's just an overall impression because of all her planets in his friendship/collaboration houses while his planets are like intruding in her most intimate houses.