II La Papesse

[kwaw]

This would give us the four estates of man, peasant, merchant, noble
and clergy; and two estates of woman, bride of Christ and bride of
man.
Kwaw

The four estates we may relate to the four suits, the two to the division of the suits into ascending and descending orders.

Bride of Christ and Bride of Man correspond to the two loves of man by which he may be described as a citizen of Jerusalem or Babylon, the love of G-d or the love of self, according to Augustinian theolology:

Bride of Christ - Love of G-d - Church - Jerusalem
Bride of Man - Love of self - State - Babylon

So we have four estates of man of which there are two types of citizen. These are followed by the Augustinian twofold division of the psyche into the dynamics of Love [Venus, Eros] and Will [Chariot - Mars], as in the Augustinian phrase 'Love God, and do what thou will.'

Kwaw

 

[kwaw]

The four estates we may relate to the four suits, the two to the division of the suits into ascending and descending orders.

Bride of Christ and Bride of Man correspond to the two loves of man by which he may be described as a citizen of Jerusalem or Babylon, the love of G-d or the love of self, according to Augustinian theolology:

Bride of Christ - Love of G-d - Church - Jerusalem
Bride of Man - Love of self - State - Babylon

So we have four estates of man of which there are two types of citizen. These are followed by the Augustinian twofold division of the psyche into the dynamics of Love [Venus, Eros] and Will [Chariot - Mars], as in the Augustinian phrase 'Love God, and do what thou will.'

Kwaw

A perhaps more accurate breakdown of Augustinian Platonism however would be to consider the fool as outside of the series giving us the Platonic/feudal medieval three estates of man producer, protector and ruler. This would split the 21 deck into three ranks of 7 cards each. The first series of 7 giving us a condition of man based upon Augustinian breakdown of Man into two type of citizen, three estates conditioned by the dual psychodynamics of love and will. The second rank of 7 cards is defined by virtue [beginning, middle and end cards being the three virtues, justice, fortitude and temperance], the third rank the reward of virtue after death.

Kwaw

 

[jmd]

It seems a while since contributing to this thread, and would like to here add another image that may be of general interest, and that adds to Ross Caldwell excellent pages on the Papesse.

Carlo Maratti has produced an image (circa 1676) that has been entitled 'Faith and Justice enthroned'. Whether or not the titling is 'correct', the image is relevantly strinking. Perhaps, after all, and despite its current title, a more apt description may be 'Justice and Church', where they are seen as reflecting one and the same.

In any case, for further consideration, and, given its title, leading to possible other finds (under 'faith' or 'enthroned faith'), here is Maratti's Faith and Justice enthroned:

 

[eugim]

Would You ?

Hello everybody here ...

Would you let me be somewhat harsh straightforward about this thread ?
I mean ...

What we have for dinner honey tonight ? / As I say to my wife...
I mean what cards suggest us on a direct view aside meaning ?

JMD pointed // I would like to see what catboxer and others (Ophiel and Diana, amongst others), have to say about some of the card's internal iconography... what about the open book, for example?
****************************************************************
Well as allways JMD s dart hurts bullseye (For me )
Also Diana at this thread I point.

1-Visconti deck / Closed book / Allegorical meaning // Roman Church "decreed " that s knowledge seems like " don t trespass " ( History proved )
2-Marseilles deck / Opened book / Metaphorical meaning //Frenchmen re worked iconographic with (Again,of course for me) deepest changes both in an external and metaphorical way.
I think here we have some contrast with Roman Church (Hi Roos,could you come here with "yours" to help ? ) and Avignon Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avignon_Papacy

(Of course aside inner contradictions)

So for me the major break is that Visconti is an allegory of the image-concept and Marseilles a metaphor.
3-Now I want to make a puzzle with all the concepts brought here,but just relates strictly to the image-card.
May be unkind ,but could you let me cross decks ?
We all knows Vieville,Noblet,Dodal and Conver cards image so it s unnecesary I think support each example I will mention.

A- II-LA PAPESSE or LA PANCES / Is pregnat of knowledge of LE BATELEVR
In some decks she looks directly to him.
B-In Vieville LE BATELEVR suggets he is pointing or best touching his "sex zone " (Inner fire s home) with his left hand /the hand that attract energy and " gives it " with his right hand /Aside phallic symbol of the Magus stick.
(Yes,again Vieville aside the " problem " with the reversal topic of intentional or not or simple negligence.)
C-The " X " on his chest remember me again it s strongly present in the Tarot as number or letter ( And its relation with " V " and reversal )

4- That s drives me to another topic and it is to the "couple " pairs as someone mentioned here.
As aforesaid I like to marry I with II as an Spiritual couple and III with IIII as an earthly couple.
So the first couple have the Power of the Soul or Inner Power and the second the External Power.
LE PAPE ? // He isn t seems blessings those couples ...
He is more busy "blessing" his Own Power/ By the way why for only one of both ?

In some way I agree with you Catboxer,II is Mother who feeds us with knowledge.
But you said right I think,she isn t looking us . // Why ?
I think as a mother as she is if she gives your the dinner but she isn t sure you have your theeths ,,, / Thats why I think she don t looks to Us
So I think we must " Go for it ",but be sure to qualify or we must go to the dentist.
She wants to bring up knowledge Lions with "Theeths" for get it.
"Otherwise please wait for assistance" as the telephone says ...
In a similar sense that card brings me to VIIII -L HERMITE,because he isnt showing us the path (His lantern is close to his face) is somewhat ...
Had you arrived afterall ?
Likes Knowledge (II) Mom he wants be sure that s you qualify to " find " knowledge for yourself.
If a child see thats his Mother don t "Ever" watch him.
What he does ?

Have a nice day !

Eugim

 

[eugim]

1-If one see the Visconti deck with regard to the TdM decks,one can noticed that aside Vieville deck where the book is closed,on the others is opened.
2-Another that she is placed and seeing toward LE BATELEVR so not toward the sequence card.

miguelito...

 

[kwaw]

Maratti's Faith and Justice enthroned:

The little head under the papesse in the Hasle pres Berthoud version of the papesse (1885-87), is it a winged head sort of cherubic figure like those under faith above, or meant as the head of a baby in reference to pope Joan?

 

[Bernice]

Browsing the archives I came across this thread where consideration is given that the Papess is most likely a Pope. I.E. male, not female.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=70257&page=1&pp=10

Especially see Rosannes' post re. the attire of the Papess. Kwaw is there as well, and Ross, and others ....... great thread!

And so my idea of how the Papess might be read has changed.
Clearly 'she' (most probably) represents the Letter of the Law.

Bee

 

[kwaw]

II. The Audacious Popesse

II. The Audacious Popesse

She is a strange mystery:
this poetic irony
of Faith allegorized
by that which faith denies.

Beneath her bridal veil
this holy woman, enthroned
in a place denied her by faith,
unveils unholy truth:

the monstrous truth
of barbarous clerics
who, beneath decrees of faith,
prefer to prey on
than pray for.​

 

[kwaw]

Becoming a Nun

Becoming a Nun

She always had an interest in religion,
and said she wanted to become a nun.
She showed a capacity for unquestioning
and self-effacing devotion; for self-sacrifice
and discipline allied to a yearning for mystical
communion, a personal relationship with the divine:
valued order, conformity, obedience, duty,
obligation and a Spartan lifestyle.

She found enlightenment in a mystic needle;
and a God by the name of Charles Manson.
Having always felt herself to be chosen
she delighted to be on a mission from God.​

 

[PTAH]

little head under papesse

The little head under the papesse in the Hasle pres Berthoud version of the papesse (1885-87), is it a winged head sort of cherubic figure like those under faith above, or meant as the head of a baby in reference to pope Joan?

Kwaw, regret to say I believe the little head is simply an ornate finial on the arm of a Directoire styled chair.