RiccardoLS
And it's just another website that never bothered to ask for permission before reproducing the images. 
Is it bad to show scans of complete decks? split from Side by side card comparisons
karen0205
I'm sure there are people, like myself, who have purchased LS decks that I otherwise would not have if I wasn't able to see the pictures first so even though they didn't ask permission, it's still some form of advertising and does promote sales. I won't buy a deck unless I can see all the cards. There are too many that I have bought, without seeing them all, to find that there are really offensive or violent cards in the deck and I was sorry I bought it.RiccardoLS said:And it's just another website that never bothered to ask for permission before reproducing the images.
RiccardoLS
Nevertheless, the decision should be up to the image holders, shouldn't it?
While is perfectly correct for you to be happy that happens, it still feels like piracy to me.
While is perfectly correct for you to be happy that happens, it still feels like piracy to me.
Soothsayer
karen0205 said:
I totally agree. Sites like Strange Realms may be illegal or at least immoral, but there is no denying that they surely must promote sales. In fact, I have purchased a few decks after having viewed the images on sites like SR. For people like me, sites like this are a good idea and a great help when it comes to deciding whether to purchase a deck or not. I like to know exactly what I'm getting before parting with my money; I wish publishers would have full deck scans on their websites. Perhaps printing COPYRIGHT across the face of the card would discourage people from scanning the images and printing their own, fake decks? That way, genuine customers can still see the image and decide whether they like the deck or not. I think publishers should consider doing this as it would be a step in the right direction and might encourage customers not to visit sites like SR.
Aerin
There's also a problem that Karen (Baba) amongst others has pointed out where if a company is seen not to take any action to protect their copyright then it undermines them.
Which is a problem for everyone I would have thought.
Which is a problem for everyone I would have thought.
Soothsayer
I think these issues can be resolved to an extent if publishers just show full deck scans on their websites. Showing just a few cards gives an idea to the style and theme of the deck, but every card needs to be shown in the interest of the customer. Personally, I won't purchase a deck unless I have seen every card for reasons which karen0205 has already mentioned. I'm sure we're not the only ones.
Le Fanu
RiccardoLS said:
Just out of curiosity, given the choice, would Lo Scarabeo forbid reproduction of decks on these sites?
Ive made so many tarot purchases after looking at these sites. Ive said this before, but I started buying decks in the very early 80s and if it wasn't in Kaplan (vol 1) you had no idea what it looked like. None whatsoever. Hard to imagine now. But I bought decks based on a shrink-wrapped sealed box. Some I hated after opening them...
I think these sites (even though they go against copyright) offer a great service. With baba store, at least they offer excellent, high resolution scans, card by card that you can look at in depth on their site. I think they do their part of the bargain in offering to the potential consumer what they'd be getting so can thus make an informed decision.
You're probably not going to like this Ric, but whenever I see a deck in my local store, I go straight home, check these sites, and (invariably!) buy the deck. But these sites are actually quite pivotal for me. This way, Ive bought the Etruscan, Secret Forest, Initiatory Golden Dawn, Tarot of the Master.... In fact probably all my LoS decks except Ancient Italian which I bought in Brazil without viewing first (my first LoS deck!), just judging from the box...
Just counted; I own 35 LoS decks and would probably have bought significantly fewer if I hadn't been able to see them first...
RiccardoLS
I suppose we are definitely going OT.
Can maybe a mod step in and split the topic?
I would like to understand how the fact that a specific website may promote sales, makes it necessarely good for a copyright holder.
You may be perfectly free not to buy any deck you don't have seen all the cards before, BUT I don't see why I should indulge you (generic customer) into this.
It's like you say... I would never buy a DvD of a movie I haven't seen, so movie piracy promotes sales. Doesn't really work that way, or at least it's not that straightforward.
Just a little food for the conversation...
1. there are people that may be paying to show that images. And there are people that have been respectful enogh to ask for permission and possibly receive it. Or that had it denied, and didn't use the images.
2. there may be the idea not to show more than a cerrtain number of cards of decks and new decks. Because you could think (me, for instance) that seeing and knowing everything about a deck, kills the magic, while addresssing a new deck could be a leap of faith.
3. there may be the fact that, in order to have permission, you have to treat the images in a certain way... like showing the actual cards, mentioning the authors, etc..
4. there may be that - right now - all over the world most metaphysical shops are going through rough times. It's the crisis, and it's also that most niche products (like Tarot decks) are gravitating more & more on the internet. And it may be that the fact that you have to be into a shop to really see a deck, look at the cards, feel the cardstock is part of something we would be sad once it get lost.
What I want to say is that it is sure these websites provide a service to many of you.
And still they do not provide a service to us (because - end of game - we are the ones that should decide if something is good for us or not). Even if they "promote" sales.
They (because I was referring to whole bunch of websites. I don't recall any of them ever asking for or receiving a permission from us) are - fully aware of what they are doing - "stealing".
I wonder what would happen if any website would ever try to really provide such a service to You Tarotist, playing by the rules... like: "asking first".
Edited to answer La Fanu:
No, Lo Scarabeo would probably deny the permission.
If a project would have been serious enough, however, it would consider it.
(there are a few websites, like AT, that have a generic all purpose permission for deck images, for instance).
I perfectly understand you get a service from those websites.
And it may be we receive it too (even if I don't think that few decks more sold can balance the bad).
Still the decision should be of the copyright holder. And LS - for instance - is against showing the whole deck.
Can maybe a mod step in and split the topic?
I would like to understand how the fact that a specific website may promote sales, makes it necessarely good for a copyright holder.
You may be perfectly free not to buy any deck you don't have seen all the cards before, BUT I don't see why I should indulge you (generic customer) into this.
It's like you say... I would never buy a DvD of a movie I haven't seen, so movie piracy promotes sales. Doesn't really work that way, or at least it's not that straightforward.
Just a little food for the conversation...
1. there are people that may be paying to show that images. And there are people that have been respectful enogh to ask for permission and possibly receive it. Or that had it denied, and didn't use the images.
2. there may be the idea not to show more than a cerrtain number of cards of decks and new decks. Because you could think (me, for instance) that seeing and knowing everything about a deck, kills the magic, while addresssing a new deck could be a leap of faith.
3. there may be the fact that, in order to have permission, you have to treat the images in a certain way... like showing the actual cards, mentioning the authors, etc..
4. there may be that - right now - all over the world most metaphysical shops are going through rough times. It's the crisis, and it's also that most niche products (like Tarot decks) are gravitating more & more on the internet. And it may be that the fact that you have to be into a shop to really see a deck, look at the cards, feel the cardstock is part of something we would be sad once it get lost.
What I want to say is that it is sure these websites provide a service to many of you.
And still they do not provide a service to us (because - end of game - we are the ones that should decide if something is good for us or not). Even if they "promote" sales.
They (because I was referring to whole bunch of websites. I don't recall any of them ever asking for or receiving a permission from us) are - fully aware of what they are doing - "stealing".
I wonder what would happen if any website would ever try to really provide such a service to You Tarotist, playing by the rules... like: "asking first".
Edited to answer La Fanu:
No, Lo Scarabeo would probably deny the permission.
If a project would have been serious enough, however, it would consider it.
(there are a few websites, like AT, that have a generic all purpose permission for deck images, for instance).
I perfectly understand you get a service from those websites.
And it may be we receive it too (even if I don't think that few decks more sold can balance the bad).
Still the decision should be of the copyright holder. And LS - for instance - is against showing the whole deck.
Le Fanu
RiccardoLS said:
Points take. "Balance the bad" means what? People who don't buy the deck or people who print it off and make a deck out of it?
Oh dear, yes, we are off topic. Fascinating issues you raise above Ric... Bit of a Pandora's box...
RiccardoLS
People that rpints out his own deck from those scan is pretty desperate. It's not really a sale lost.
And as for people not buying the deck, is part of the deal.
My personal approach to the "bad" are the points above, and the fact that there is a moral issue ^_^
But also I don't think that the images alone "contains" a deck. If You start to see things that way, you risk losing something important. There was a "similar" discussion once regarding the Dark Grimoire deck and people asking for a book. The book is about answers (so it's seeing all images). But the approaching on a Tarot deck (imho) is about questions.
I know I'm getting totally weird, but those are the main reason why - if I had to give my opinion wheter to show all cards of a deck on the LS website - I would be against it.
Besides, in my experience, most of the deck I liked instantly were pretty shallow (like summer music). While the decks that gave me more had been decks I had a fight with.
In order to make an "informed choice" you would have to build a reviewer network, made by people that don't review only what they like, and use intelligence and feeling to look open wide, and then force us all to send decks to them ^_^
The "all images" thing is just a shortcut... and as many shortcut, in the end it's just cheating you of the journey. ^^
And as for people not buying the deck, is part of the deal.
My personal approach to the "bad" are the points above, and the fact that there is a moral issue ^_^
But also I don't think that the images alone "contains" a deck. If You start to see things that way, you risk losing something important. There was a "similar" discussion once regarding the Dark Grimoire deck and people asking for a book. The book is about answers (so it's seeing all images). But the approaching on a Tarot deck (imho) is about questions.
I know I'm getting totally weird, but those are the main reason why - if I had to give my opinion wheter to show all cards of a deck on the LS website - I would be against it.
Besides, in my experience, most of the deck I liked instantly were pretty shallow (like summer music). While the decks that gave me more had been decks I had a fight with.
In order to make an "informed choice" you would have to build a reviewer network, made by people that don't review only what they like, and use intelligence and feeling to look open wide, and then force us all to send decks to them ^_^
The "all images" thing is just a shortcut... and as many shortcut, in the end it's just cheating you of the journey. ^^
