Is Tarot Pagan?

[ihcoyc]

The 'pagan' which is spoken of here, is referring to Greek gods/godesses/legends. Opinions of what is and what is not 'pagan' depends on the time and place of the people using the word. I have no idea what other tarot enthusiasts over the past 125 years have written. If you want the real basics of anything, you have to go to the roots. Other peoples ideas & opinions only have validity when compared with those findings.

"Pagan" is one of those lovely nebulous words that means very different things to different writers. Just from 19th century English literature alone, it seems to have meant something very different to Wm. Wordsworth than it did to R. M. Ballantyne.

That said, one of the charms and virtues of romantic neo-paganism is its valorization of folk and kitchen magic, as opposed to the elaborate mummery of classical esotericism and ritual magicians. You don't need a Secret Tradition or Secret Chiefs or a (laugh cue) Great White Brotherhood to provide you with unchallengeable revelations out of a black box. The wisdom of humble and common folk is just as good.

Why this approach doesn't work for Tarot is something of a mystery to me. There seems to be a lingering need for Tarot to express an esoteric system and a secret doctrine, that it be shown to be the product of kabbalists or initiates of some sort. Personally, I think that a divination system derived from a deck of cards assembled in renaissance Italy -- more importantly, assembled by gamblers and adopted by aristocrats who were little more than the local mafiusi -- is potentially even more interesting both as an object of study and as a divination system to use.

Take two decks of Tarot cards.

One is kept wrapped in silk and stored in a silver casket. It is used by a group of wealthy, slightly bohemian English people, who use it as a part of rituals in which they dress up as Hermes Trismegistus or Anubis. There, the cards are used as foci of meditation and study.

Another is well worn and stained with wine. It is kept in a drawer in a tavern in the south of France, where it is used by the patrons to play the Tarot game. At night, sometimes the landlord's daughter brings it out to read fortunes with.

Which deck has more mana?

 

[frelkins]

You mean you don't believe in Fortuna, Rosanne?

I can't believe she doesn't believe in me either!

 

[mjhurst]

Hi, Ihcoyc,

That said, one of the charms and virtues of romantic neo-paganism is its valorization of folk and kitchen magic, as opposed to the elaborate mummery of classical esotericism and ritual magicians. You don't need a Secret Tradition or Secret Chiefs or a (laugh cue) Great White Brotherhood to provide you with unchallengeable revelations out of a black box. The wisdom of humble and common folk is just as good.

Why this approach doesn't work for Tarot is something of a mystery to me. There seems to be a lingering need for Tarot to express an esoteric system and a secret doctrine, that it be shown to be the product of kabbalists or initiates of some sort. Personally, I think that a divination system derived from a deck of cards assembled in renaissance Italy -- more importantly, assembled by gamblers and adopted by aristocrats who were little more than the local mafiusi -- is potentially even more interesting both as an object of study and as a divination system to use.

This is an important insight, not just in its own right but also in the context of recent historical findings. Evidence indicates that the notion of the trumps as an esoteric manifesto of some sort appears to have developed in the mid or late 18th century, (and to have been created by some Freemasons). It wasn't seriously developed and spread until the late 19th century, when French and English occultists followed up on Levi's reinvented occult Tarot. However, there are occasional earlier examples of the kind of folk magic which you talk about here, both with regard to regular cards and to Tarot cards.

Such minor local traditions, or even ad hoc usage, is apparently the more longstanding tradition. In that sense, at least, it is also the more interesting. The widespread desire for a secret "ancient tradition", etc., seems like an outdated relic of those Masons who (along with their enemies) created such a wonderful false history for themselves.

Here is an interesting article on the subject from our resident historian.

The Devil and the Two of Hearts (12/29/07)
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=90559

Best regards,
Michael

 

[Rosanne]

For the sake of clarity and the repeated insinuations- nay outright statements of our resident ........brainiac for the want of a better word, who covers his insults with clever words and large doses of Krypton eating.....
The word 'Pagan' to me is -non Christian not occult. It was termed classical knowledge of the Renaissance and Brainiac knows what I mean.

To me Tarot came from someones idea of an amount of cards needed for a game. That was not chosen or picked in a vacuum. It was apparently created somewhere between when playing cards were published and aprox. 40 years later in Italy. The influences of that time were- The Church, The Renaissance, the gaming/ card playing/chess playing/backgammon/dicing pastimes of the locals. Oh I forgot and money! Now for all anyone knows and that includes Brainiac- a young printer may have come up with the idea from the woodblock pictures on the shop floor- it became an instant hit like the Rubric cube did in our era, found by a person from Court who was slumming in the Taverns- had a little education- and took the cards back to be painted. If this was so, he was likely to have said the idea was his own- nothing much changes as the years roll by. Another idea is that it could be a depiction of some educational series- like maybe Hesiod's genealogy of the Gods. It might have not have any meaning whatsoever. It could be images from a calender.

This is a tarot community with a history forum. It is not a club for members- tickets given out by Michael and asked to dress according to his code. Nor is it a University- that has a certain snobbishness about who is a faculty member also. Stop been the College Bully towards me Michael, me thinks you over defend yourself- which then begs the question why????
I have a great fondness for this Forum and I wish to see everyone included- which unfortunately includes you as well. Not everyone has your debating skills, but many have an amateur passion for History. You constantly kill peoples posts.

To recap: Is Tarot or does Tarot have at it's heart Classical Paganism?
As I have said way back it has some- it seems. There is an influence.
It seems that Art and Architecture at the same time as Tarot was created had influences from the classical era- so did literature- why not Tarot.

Oh and to add about the wrapped cards in a wine stained cloth or the silver chest- both have their attractions and to each type of user the manna is inherent. I still have my first deck- kept with much fondness. I also have an old gambling notation from 1570 that is framed. I am not scared of occult associations- that is now history- but I am talking about somewhere between 1390 - 1440.
~Rosanne

 

[mjhurst]

Hi, Rosanne,

You constantly kill peoples posts.

I thought I was trying to revive posts which appeared DOA. That's the intent of all those specific questions about your vague allusions, trying to breath some life into moribund generalities. I'll try again:

Which ancient myths does the standard Tarot trump cycle represent?

It seems that Art and Architecture at the same time as Tarot was created had influences from the classical era- so did literature- why not Tarot.

Qui bene distinguit, bene docet. Not every thing is the same thing. Some art and literature was not classically inspired. To see the difference, you have to look.

If one looks at Sola Busca or Boiardo or reads about the 16 Heroes deck, for example, one finds characteristically Renaissance (neo-classical) subject matter. If one looks at the standard Tarot trumps, one sees characteristically medieval Christian allegory. Again, the differences are dramatic, so it does not require a Ph.D. in Art History to identify subjects like the Emperor, Pope, Love, Justice, Fortune, Fortitude, Death, Temperance, the Devil, and Resurrection. Rather, it requires closing one's eyes to the evidence to avoid seeing the difference.

Best regards,
Michael

 

[Rosanne]

...The Tower, the Sun , the Moon, The Star, The Papesse, That Christian Hanged Man??? The Fool, The world... See I can trot out names too- oh beg your pardon they were all named and numbered at the beginning??
Temperance had wings and the other Virtues did not. The Visconti Chariot was one idea and the Tdm Chariot was another as was the World- and the Tower appears to have an animal by it on the Cary-Yale sheet- what on earth could that mean? The Bateleur has a monkey on his back and a knife to castrate someone- or maybe butter his bread......your conclusions are your conclusions, but the big flaw in your argument is that it is not known what was the idea of the 22 cards- just assumptions and conclusions.
As to DOA on the History forum- I guess your so called 'revival' is to create an open discussion- not of course a tunneled visioned one, by stirring eh???
~Rosanne

 

[Melanchollic]

Cupid is the only classical figure to make a regular appearance in the standard trumps, and his significance was as an allegory of Love.

I've sometimes wondered about the maiden on the TdM 'Star' card. Is she a reference to classical myth, a biblical reference, an unusual interpretation of the Aquarian water-bearer? Let's all just hope ol' Zeus doesn't run across her bent over the river butt-naked like that!!


M

 

[mjhurst]

Hi, Rosanne,

...The Tower, the Sun , the Moon, The Star, The Papesse, That Christian Hanged Man??? The Fool, The world... See I can trot out names too- oh beg your pardon they were all named and numbered at the beginning??
Temperance had wings and the other Virtues did not. The Visconti Chariot was one idea and the Tdm Chariot was another as was the World- and the Tower appears to have an animal by it on the Cary-Yale sheet- what on earth could that mean? The Bateleur has a monkey on his back and a knife to castrate someone- or maybe butter his bread......your conclusions are your conclusions, but the big flaw in your argument is that it is not known what was the idea of the 22 cards- just assumptions and conclusions.
As to DOA on the History forum- I guess your so called 'revival' is to create an open discussion- not of course a tunneled visioned one, by stirring eh???
~Rosanne

So... which of those seemingly random references is intended to represent a Pagan god? Any? All? Which trumps represent which gods.

I think that if you take a day or two to calm down and then read what you just posted, you may be able to understand what I'm referring to when I use terms like babbling, incoherent, and posts that are DOA. These seem like unrelated and irrelevant ideas just strung together, and they certainly don't present any evidence or argument supporting the notion that the trump cycle is some sort of Pagan wisdom.

What Greco-Roman myth does the standard trump cycle represent?

Best regards,
Michael

 

[Rosanne]

I've sometimes wondered about the maiden on the TdM 'Star' card. Is she a reference to classical myth, a biblical reference, an unusual interpretation of the Aquarian water-bearer? Let's all just hope ol' Zeus doesn't run across her bent over the river butt-naked like that!!


M

Hehehe Zeus was known for his erotic escapades, but I reckon rather than blast her with his thunderstick- he would have the tried eating her first.

Interesting to me is that in the translation of Hesoid, all these characters are named (except the tower)and when I read it it reminded me of the Film version of Romeo and Juliette. Modern setting- age old story filched by Shakespeare and translated well into today's setting. Could have happened with Tarot- this same process, only modern for Tarot was 15th Century.
~Rosanne

 

[Cerulean]

Ah the Italian threads of Shakesphere and Chaucer...

1....as some of the stories of Shakesphere...

http://www.dramaticpublishing.com/AuthorsCornerDet.php?titlelink=9731&sortorder=1

2.
As for Chaucer, it is thought he's had a copy of Boccaccio's work and the Divine Comedy tucked in his satchel as he departed Florence...

"Chaucer's visit to Florence was an event of no political importance but for him and for English poetry, it was very important indeed. His reading of Dante and Boccaccio offered him new models for matter, form and style. Even when he wrote a dream allegory in octosyllabics, the House of Fame, he poured new Tuscan wine into this old bottle Knowing his limitations, he did not attempt to iimmitate to Dante's subject matter, but his reading of Dante widened his horizons and kindled his poetic ambitions. Boccaccios made him conscious of the potentialities of the romance, which in its English form he seems to have regarded with contempt and encouraged him to give it the dignity of epic in the 'Knight's Tale' and Troylus and Crieyde. In Dante he found a model for 'a poetic that allowed easy passage from high to low style and deemed nothing too common, no image too homely.' On that April day when he rode out of Florence, wth the Divina Commedia and perhaps Boccaccio's two poems in his baggage, he must have been conscious, like Dante's Ulysses, of new worlds awaiting exploration..."

Charles Hobday
A Golden Ring: English Poets in Florence from 1373 to the present day.
P. 28, from first chapter, Geoffrey Chaucer

Just emerging a bit from the underground streams to wistfully wave some freshly read poetic leaves...a glimpse of romantic threads that glittered from Italy through Merrie England.. but hopefully not entangling anyone in sargosso seaweed...into the sweet stream of a pagan dream...

Cerulean