Is Tarot Pagan?

[Rosanne]

As for Chaucer, it is thought he's had a copy of Boccaccio's work and the Divine Comedy tucked in his satchel as he departed Florence...

"Chaucer's visit to Florence was an event of no political importance but for him and for English poetry, it was very important indeed. His reading of Dante and Boccaccio offered him new models for matter, form and style. Even when he wrote a dream allegory in octosyllabics, the House of Fame, he poured new Tuscan wine into this old bottle Knowing his limitations, he did not attempt to immitate to Dante's subject matter, but his reading of Dante widened his horizons and kindled his poetic ambitions.

Ah sweet stream of Pagan dreams indeed....it is all about connections, and following a path from one scholar to the next; or one environment that had a particular atmosphere like the commission of Art work that was fancied at the time.
They may be cul' de sacs for Tarot, but it is interesting to look at the influences- The wall of Malatesta's tomb in Rimini has a wonderful sculpture relief of Luna carrying a crescent Moon , riding a war wagon covered in Zodiac signs and florals. These Pagan images that are everywhere in Italy are so expressive of ideas. (No seaweed at all Cerulean )
~Rosanne
Edit: Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta was a Mercenary soldier who fought against the Pope, was excommunicated, fought against the Pope's enemies and was re instated as a Catholic. He married Francesco Sforza's daughter, as well as fought alongside Francesco. Luna on his tomb is very reminscent of the Visconti Moon.

 

[philebus]

...The Tower, the Sun , the Moon, The Star, The Papesse, That Christian Hanged Man??? The Fool, The world... See I can trot out names too- oh beg your pardon they were all named and numbered at the beginning??
Temperance had wings and the other Virtues did not. The Visconti Chariot was one idea and the Tdm Chariot was another as was the World- and the Tower appears to have an animal by it on the Cary-Yale sheet- what on earth could that mean? The Bateleur has a monkey on his back and a knife to castrate someone- or maybe butter his bread.

I'm a little hesitant to get involved here, I don't have the knowledge to answer these points but I do have some questions about them.

Has The Papesse not already been noted as a common figure in Christian art?:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=92774&highlight=female+pope

I thought "That Christian Hanged Man" was known as the Traitor, and that is how they executed their traitors, it doesn't seem very Pagan.

It has been a long while since I read The Game of Tarot as a history book, rather than a game resource but I seem to remember that Temperance did not originally have wings. Was she not originally seated, with the corners of the chair becoming more curved until the French card makers interpreted them as wings?

The Sun, Moon, Star, and World are popular images in all kinds of context, including but not only Pagan and Christian. In the context of the other images, would it not make sense to see them as Christian rather than Pagan?

You mention differences between the Visconti and the TDM Chariot and World but could you clarify the importance of this, what does that tell us about the origin of tarot? Should we not focus on the earliest examples for clues? Or, is the suggestion that they became pagan?

 

[Debra]

The sacrifice in the Sacred Grove

I appreciate the speculative and exploratory intent of this thread and am following as best I can so Please Rosanne continue.

One question occurs to me about the sometimes broad, sometimes too-fine and wavering line between Pagan and Church, a line that shifts as the Church expropriates, absorbs and transforms pagan stories. Well maybe I am too much influenced by James Frazier's Golden Bough but still I wonder how clear was the line to the ordinary folk between Christ and his Church, and the Sacrifice in the Sacred Grove.

I am reading the Brothers Grimm, whose stories are of a pagan world. Still a Christian heaven welcomes the killed little children at the end of many of the creepy, cruel, sad stories.

(I will continue to read but perhaps not contribute as Real Life is complex at this moment)

 

[Rosanne]

Hi philebus- thanks for posting your thoughts and questions.
The link you gave of the AT thread is excellent. When I was at school we had a big framed pictures of what seemed to be the Papesse as Mother Church, Mary Magdalene, Mary the Mother of Jesus. When I first saw the TDM Papesse, I thought it was the Mother of Jesus for one simple reason. The Baldachino (curtain hanging) behind her seemed to have an outline of a Dove. Mary was known as the first Tabernacle- the first receptacle holding her son Jesus. Portable tabernacles were dove shaped receptacles- that was very usual. There was a tiny baldachino that covered this Dove receptacle like a noddy hat, that unfurled just like the one behind the Papesse. As a pair though, Papesse does not fit with the Pope- as we all know there is no Mrs Pope.
I was shown an Indian (Sanskrit) astrological chart from medieval times and right in the centre was the Papesse with a spindle and wheel at her feet and what looked like a book on her lap. The Crown and robes were identical. I asked how this could be and was told the Astrological concepts spread from Rome and Byzantium to India. So that set me on a trek to find who this Queen of Heaven could be. In mythology the male and female principles exist as a reflection of the relationship between the sexes in a society. In Mesopotamian myths, Inanna represents both love and war, and acts as the "Queen of Heaven", while simultaneously representing the matriarchal way of Mesopotamian culture; conversely, Zeus is a strong Greek model for patriarchal rule and the strength of the male principle over a more diminished female sense of power. His wife was Rhea. Rhea is the Queen of Heaven because she gave birth to the Titans and her symbol is the Moon and she also like Innana represents both Love and War- so I started to look at the TDM quite differently as to what it showed. So somehow I think the images were Pagan originally- not became Pagan. It is to do with what they represent - for me in a card game they are about Fate and Chance and Fortune and Peace in the Countryside- in a way Civil Religion. Not Christianity- thought the people were Christian.
The Chariot of the Visconti and the TdM show very different concepts. The TdM shows a God of War (Known as Mars in Fury) to me and the Chariot of Visconti seems to be a Triumph of the Marriage of Bianca- personal triumph versus Civil Triumph. Different directions using similar allegory.
~Rosanne

 

[Rosanne]

One question occurs to me about the sometimes broad, sometimes too-fine and wavering line between Pagan and Church, a line that shifts as the Church expropriates, absorbs and transforms pagan stories. Well maybe I am too much influenced by James Frazier's Golden Bough but still I wonder how clear was the line to the ordinary folk between Christ and his Church, and the Sacrifice in the Sacred Grove.

I am reading the Brothers Grimm, whose stories are of a pagan world. Still a Christian heaven welcomes the killed little children at the end of many of the creepy, cruel, sad stories.

Hi Debra- it is a fine line and the Easter Egg is a great example. The thing I find interesting is that myths show concepts more clearly than Christian stories do. You have to know the story of Saint Jerome to see him as time and a Hermit. The ordinary folk would understand an old lame man more as the concept of Time flies- than the Christian concept of a saint in the wilderness. They see Saint Jerome painted in the Church (sometimes) and he seems to embody holiness not time. The ordinary folk just continued on as they had always done with age old myth as the same as Grimms fairy stories. I think Christians in the most part had this duality going on- much as the Irish do now- with Catholic Leprechauns. Appropriation of themes to explain something is nothing outlandish or extraordinary- why not with cards or more specifically Tarot. That does not make Tarot occult- but it could make it Liber Imaginum Deorum (texts that show the hidden meaning of Classical myth images).
~Rosanne
~Rosanne

 

[Teheuti]

The word 'Pagan' to me is -non Christian not occult. It was termed classical knowledge of the Renaissance

The citizens of classical Rome would have been very insulted to be called pagan since it meant 'of the countryside' and was used by them to refer to all that was boorish, uneducated, and steeped in folk tradition rather than in the refined religions of the city. If everything that is non-Christian is Pagan, wouldn't it be better, for these discussions to be more specific about the tradition being referenced? Why not just say "classical Greco-Roman myths" rather than use the term "Pagan" that many people think of someone whose religion and culture (not their education and learning) is specifically not Christian but could be Aboriginal as easily as Mithraic.

Appropriation of themes to explain something is nothing outlandish or extraordinary- why not with cards or more specifically Tarot. That does not make Tarot occult- but it could make it Liber Imaginum Deorum (texts that show the hidden meaning of Classical myth images).

Exactly! Knowledge of the "hidden meaning of Classical myth images" did not make one a Pagan in the Renaissance, nor does it today. As you've noted, this learning was appropriated into the Christian world view. It was often explained as containing foreshadowing of the Christ. This kind of amalgam is often strange to the puritanical thinking of Protestant Americans (and to many others in the non-Latin world), whereas it is not a contradiction at all in Italy. It is a mistake to assume that just because a Bishop's home is painted with murals of the classical myths that that makes him a Pagan - as some are wont to do when first touring Italy. The Italians will only laugh at the insularity of such an assumption.

Classical knowledge was seen as part of the "classical" education of a Christian. It was understood and interpreted within that framework. It was not the same as someone who lived in 2nd century BC Rome and actually worshiped Juno and Jupiter in the way that a good citizen should. And that worship would NEVER have been considered "Pagan."

 

[Rosanne]

You are quite right Mary- but by the time I had posted the thread and realised my error in the title- it was out there. I realised that Pagan was the term for 'country bumpkins' as we would say. It is also a term for today in Earth centred belief- so I confused many I think. Well maybe they came and looked at the History forum at least- which would please me no end I am glad those Romans cannot be insulted here at least in 2008.

My comments about the tomb of Malatesta was to show that it was usual for a Catholic to have a tomb created with Classical symbols of the Myths. As you say, Italy is covered with CGR (classical-Greco-Roman) images, even to this day you might find a Goddess on a tomb in some small way.

These words of yours Mary are very important: Popes and Cardinals of the Church today still have what is called a classical Education. It is standard for Catholic girls, of my age (over 50) to have one also. I guess I always believed that my Catholic heritage (not spiritual) had roots in the Classical era, and my spiritual heritage was in Israel. It was a joke when we were read Papal encyclicals to roll our eyes and say ..."and thus spake Zeus"

Classical knowledge was seen as part of the "classical" education of a Christian. It was understood and interpreted within that framework. It was not the same as someone who lived in 2nd century BC Rome and actually worshiped Juno and Jupiter in the way that a good citizen should. And that worship would NEVER have been considered "Pagan."

 

[ihcoyc]

You are quite right Mary- but by the time I had posted the thread and realised my error in the title- it was out there. I realised that Pagan was the term for 'country bumpkins' as we would say. It is also a term for today in Earth centred belief- so I confused many I think.

Technically, "pagan" may have originally been military slang, meaning not so much "rustic" as "civilian." Pagans were the people who lived in the pagus, which in one sense was a relatively neutral term for the countryside. They were the people who stayed back home while the soldiers were marched from one end of the empire to the other. Pagus survives in Modern French pays, where it has something of the sense of "hometown" rather than always conjuring up images of yokels.

This military sense got borrowed to mean those who were not enlisted in the army of God, a metaphor that occurs throughout the New Testament.

 

[Rosanne]

Pagus survives in Modern French pays, where it has something of the sense of "hometown" rather than always conjuring up images of yokels.

This military sense got borrowed to mean those who were not enlisted in the army of God, a metaphor that occurs throughout the New Testament.

Yes! in Post 23? I wrote this but it got lost in the hubbub that followed. The term I used of 'Country bumpkins' was unfortunate really. Sorry for that- I should be more careful in choice of words.

Pagan:from Paganus meaning rustic. Heathen practice that was always there after Christianity was established. Apparently also it was a contemptuous name for a Roman civilian when early Christians called themselves Soldiers of Christ or Milites Christi. Romans adopted the military word Paganus for those who were not Soldiers of Christ (non-Christian).

Not sure that heathen is the right word either.
~Rosanne

 

[Rosanne]

I thought I might explain my drift by giving an example of a series of four cards from the TdM, focusing mainly on the the Lovers Card 6.
So I am looking at Cards 5/6/7/8 known in English as Pope/Lovers/Chariot/Justice- a small bite of the sequence.

And blessed be the first sweet agony
I felt when I found myself bound to Love
The bow and all the arrows that have pierced me,
The wounds that reach the bottom of my heart.
Francesca Petrarca 1304-1374

The renaissance as has been discussed, was a time of rediscovery of Classical ideas and images. Earthly or Profane Love could be expressed alongside Sacred Love. (Profane Love such as the Power of Venus and Cupid or Sacred Love or Soul Love such as Eros and Psyche/ Christ's love for us usually shown by the Cross of Crucifixion or a Bare breast feeding a child, often with Christ's arm around the Virgin as Love through the Church or sacred marriage.)

A longing for Beauty was a renaissance motive for depicting love.

Love is nothing else but a certain coveting to enjoy Beauty Castiglione.

Love for reasons beyond explaining here became very fashionable and is explained very well in Agnes Heller's book Renaissance Man

Allegories are chosen as a means for communicating knowledge. They dramatise Cosmic Law, principles, processes, relationships and functions; expressing them in an easy way to understand the knowledge.

I have read that the Lovers card depicts the choice between Vice and Virtue.
Virtuous living escapes the embrace of Vice, by choosing Virtue.
One of the things that makes me question this is blindfolded Cupid and the bare legs of the center figure (very odd considering all the other figures have leggings...must mean something )Blindfolded Cupid means 'False Love' or 'Blind Love' The card itself does not show a decision- you get the image before the choice which really seems odd to me. In the Art images- there is one by Paolo Veronese that shows that the man has chosen Virtue over Vice, as do other depictions on the theme.

So is there anything else that it might show that would come from Classical knowledge? There is the myth of Venus (Aphrodite) and Mars (Ares) united by Love. This is direct from myth without a Christian influence.
Jupiter (Zeus) was the Father of Cupid (Eros) and sometimes it was Vulcan (Hephaistos) Jupiter is also the father of Mars.
The art work 'Venus and Mars United by Love' by Paolo Veronese depicts the myth suggesting the civilising Power of Love- so illustrates the Triumph of Love or Wisdom over War. There is an exception though that is a 'Just' war. It is wise and Loving to have a 'just' war. (apparently)

With Venus and her Lover Mars -he is so busy that he is no longer leading others onto the battlefield except in a just War- his position as Agricultural God takes over and there is Peace in the Countryside. Distinction drawn by Renaissance artists of the two kinds of love: amore vulgare, Earthly love experienced by the senses that tempts one into debauchery; and amore celeste, the noble, spiritual love that leads one to Heaven. Mars and Venus united in Courtship allows for only 'Just' Wars and Justice in the Land to flourish. (and Wealth)
So we have the cast of the Allegory of Wisdom of War and Love uniting in Peace using the Justice as it's controlling force. This has the blessing of Zeus/Jupiter (Le Pape/Pope) The resulting mythological child of Venus and Mars is Harmonia (Harmony)
- ain't Tarot wonderful!
~Rosanne
Edited to add: oops forgot to tell you why the bare legs! Mars takes off his armored leggings and drops his shield when engaging in the Affair with Venus.