@ firemaiden > #79
I tried this time to be specific with your objection firemaiden.
V for U is not a "disguise", it is a typographical reality.
You are obviously totally correct here - but you do not think it through. It is a bit more complicated than that BECAUSE what with the REAL "V"s?
Not only we here ponder that question so let me provide a link:
https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Roman-V-meant-to-mean-the-letter-U
The quick answer is yes: a V in a Latin inscription can represent a V, which the Romans pronounced like a W, or a U, or even the number 5.
The LONG answer is interesting too - but he leaves out the PHOENICIAN "ALPHABET" which was the source for ALL our others here around - and not only those!
The long answer will take a few more steps. The ancient Roman alphabet, developed from the Etruscan alphabet, which (in turn) evolved from the Greek alphabet, is still the alphabet we use today, though there have been some modifications along the way. Here are just a few:
1. The Romans used all caps.
2. The vowels I and U had consonantal versions (pronounced like our Y and W, respectively); most Latin textbooks these days let students try to distinguish vocalic I from consonantal I, but they usually convert the consonantal U to V. You'll find words like INSULA ("island") and IUPPITER ("Jupiter") along with VACUUS ("empty") and VIVUNT ("they live") in those textbooks. Nowadays, of course, we've turned most instances of that consonantal I into a J.
3. The Romans, however, would have written these words as INSVLA, IVPPITER, VACVVS, and VIVVNT. Deciphering these Vs takes a little practice, but you get used to it.
4. Ironically, some scholarly editions have gone in the opposite direction with the U/V problem, converting all those Vs back to Us in an attempt to be more authentic to the ancient Roman practice of writing them the same way — which leaves us with INSULA, IUPPITER, UACUUS, and UIUUNT.
So: Brian Glenney, Latin teacher and a lover of ancient languages and history confirmed for us on the 6th of September 2015 that BOTH U + V are existing in the "V" (letter-wise) at the same point in spacetime - but the READER gets to DECIDE from his EXPERIENCE what he CHOOSES it to BE. Logically.
Think about Schroedinger's cat for a moment
Now: you as a reader of Tarot cards and books and forums are ACCUSTOMED to read LEFOV as LEFOU because you have trained/learned to do so by PERSONAL experience and simply CHOOSE the "U" for YOUR reading but you choose also to IGNORE the other OPTION that still stands as always.
You can relate to your decision for "U" because it opens in your mind all those experienced roads to the knowledge you have sampled over the years concerning this card and THEREFORE defend your "V"iew of the "U".
BUT it is only ONE view.
The other possibility of the "V" - that I chose to give a discourse on is simply not existing in YOUR world.
In the Roman world a similar "problem" occurred with the "C".
An EDUCATED person would SPEAK Ceasar [ˈʦɛːzaʁ] or [ˈkae̯.sar]
http://forvo.com/word/caesar/
- (and not even Merriam-Webster - an Encyclopædia Britannica Company - would tell you THAT because THEY use the ANGLICIZED version of spelling) but if you would do that on the street everybody might think you're "loco" what is Spanish for INSANE (like a fool) but the Latin root for it could lead you to > DISlocated - like the SHOULDER of LEFOV > LE MAT what refers OF COURSE to his DISLOCATION between the cards having NO numeral - BUT belongs between XX ... XXI like AEW advised correctly following Alphonse Louis Constant quoted by jmd already here.
AC has got that obviously so totally w-r-o-n-g with his pseudo-mathematical "explanations" that I am at a complete loss of words for him...
- but catboxer in the 3rd post said it already:
The Fool, as Diana is fond of pointing out, has no number; there is no zero in the Roman numerical system.
I just would like to add that LEFOV > LE MAT by no means is a FOOL & for a real dope mathematician there is a BIG difference between "0" and NOTHING. They are by NO means of kin.
A more detailed link to the spelling problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation
Concerning the ROMAN numerals on the Tarot cards you should ask yourself instead WHY they were used THERE because the Arabic numerals (that were an adaption of the much older Indian system BECAUSE it contained a symbol for "0" what made calculation more effective) were widely in use in Europe since the 15th century and JN created his Tarot in the 17th century.
The European acceptance of the numerals was accelerated by the invention of the printing press, and they became widely known during the 15th century. Early evidence of their use in Britain includes: an equal hour horary quadrant from 1396,[21] in England, a 1445 inscription on the tower of Heathfield Church, Sussex; a 1448 inscription on a wooden lych-gate of Bray Church, Berkshire; and a 1487 inscription on the belfry door at Piddletrenthide church, Dorset; and in Scotland a 1470 inscription on the tomb of the first Earl of Huntly in Elgin Cathedral. (See G.F. Hill, The Development of Arabic Numerals in Europe for more examples.) In central Europe, the King of Hungary Ladislaus the Posthumous, started the use of Arabic numerals, which appear for the first time in a royal document of 1456.[22] By the mid-16th century, they were in common use in most of Europe.[23] Roman numerals remained in use mostly for the notation of Anno Domini years, and for numbers on clockfaces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals
When you come up with that answer to yourself - please be honest & REASONABLE - look at the pictures 1st and behold all the ROUNDED lines and CURVES.
Don't go with the flock that ba-aa-ahs how COMPLICATED it would be to cut a 2 or a 5 or a U into wood.
Maîtres Cartiers was a title for the reason to be a MASTER of that profession and his own boss in his own house in his own business. Filed with name and address in the annals of the town he was living producing and keeping his books in order in - with Arabic numbers most probably.
The answer to the WHY of ROMAN NUMERALS is that they made CODE possible that could escape the eye of the "uninvited" (remember the XI of Jean Dodal with the >> F.P.LE.TRANGE << what is ASSUMED to mean "Fait pour l'Etrange" what is just THAT: an ASSUMPTION! because all FRENCH letters stayed French (IF you would call them French anyway
)
The numerical CODE is hidden of course in the IIII that occurs 4 times in: 4 - 9 - 14 - 19 (like on Dodal's IIII too that contains a tiny 4 too
) The 4 x IIII makes 16 and from there you go straight to the (in those times assumed) Arabic Geomantic System that consists of 16 distinct "characters" that can be paired in 8 x 2.
Here on Aeclectic is a closed thread of 16 pages with quite winded wording but still comprehensible - concerning the PMB "cards" - about that (and I based a lot of my studies on the content there) and - of course - I made JPGs for orientation but that would be not for this topic here so...
>>> EDITION on the 18th + 22nd of February 2016:
I created 6 folders with 37 (from more than 500 of the same format) files on Dropbox. Just read them according to the file names for a little background knowledge in the LiBER MUNDi thread here. The text files were made available by Ross Caldwell once for the LiBER MUNDi thread:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=128423
1-16 GODs:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/706svldbo6op31h/AADYqAkHtAhNCBBjagtpGy1Sa?dl=0
2-How the Geomantic ORACLE works:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/65099zo7i856uvf/AABBy0NTI_RSr9U5UP-BVqHma?dl=0
3-How the 16 Signs got their Names in the 1st place:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fwzqndsoj5tbzbx/AADs_ej7XL9vH1lPVwwnPUc2a?dl=0
4-Distribution & Variations
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hyykxpkb4xjwvmt/AAAGSGglLn7NSPnpDEeZvkV2a?dl=0
5-How the STRUCTURE of the 16 Sign is based on the 8 folded STAR from the BEGINNING+2. Form
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zzabpvkfqp8esny/AADL3QCAe63sSpII9IkfgxHua?dl=0
6-Meaning is a matter of PERSPECTIVE
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7bn39pseo1uvurj/AAC6BIUWxSOHvbM2efV9Kd-Wa?dl=0
This system was very popular in the renaissance throughout Europe and Filippo Maria Visconti (like many aristocrats) had books in his libraries about the concerned themes - especially Geomantics. I gave more detailed but summarized info on that at TH but strewn throughout the thread there.
http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewto...7ad8675d9cafbf
complete with a free PDF on scribd ready for free download after free registration.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/241968716/...ry-dot-com-pdf
Please give it one more try and read through it again.
So many loose ends are quite neatly knitted HERE.
Adrian