LS Shaman Tarot

[Cat*]

My feeling is that - even you Cat in your obviously thoughtful post - you want to place the deck at the bar. You still may accept to find the deck "not guilty", but it's a tribunal, and the deck is called to defend itself.

All of these links, all of this "please let me show you why it is wrong", all of these switching as it was the same thing between cultural misappropration, LS sexualization, and the truth of Shaman practices...
...is just a trial (court, jury and executioner).
without even bothering to look at the deck.

You may think it is "debate". I see a "crucifixion".
That I'm not prepared to accept.
I'm not going to enter this tribunal.
Do not buy the deck, and make it short.

I am only discussing the part of the deck I have seen so far (that is, the 19 cards that are in the pdf you posted last year). Of course this is not the whole deck, but a "teaser" (as you called it) would attempt to give a well-rounded first impression of the deck, right? It's very unlikely that the rest of the deck is completely different from the 19 cards we have seen already - which are almost a quarter of the deck.

Furthermore, I specifically said I was using that one card as an example. Other people have discussed other cards that have been available to us.

I refuse the idea that I need to see an entire deck (or read an entire book, or watch an entire movie) to be able to say if I can relate to it or not, and if I feel I want to explore it in more depth or not - and why that might be the case. It's not like I'm writing an official review of the whole deck, based on these 19 cards - I'm only stating my personal thoughts and opinions amongst other people who are also interested in tarot and shamanism.

I have made a serious attempt at understanding the idea of the deck despite my initial doubts about it, and have asked questions about the research you claim has been done by its creators to be able to better judge where they came from - but unfortunately you refuse to answer them. Instead, you throw around trigger terms like "crucifixion" and "tribunal" and say you're hurt by our critical look at what is publicly available of the deck so far. Well, if you publish something, people may not like it and they may say so. That can be hard to deal with (I know that from my own experience, too!), but that's the risk of going public. I can relate to your emotions but I won't censor my criticism because of them - especially not if people are arguing against (self-)censorship in the arts at the same time. Either we all get to have our say, or we all shut up.

 

[thorhammer]

This is the only part I feel answering.
An "artificial" duality urban/natural material/spiritual?
Even the duality mind and body is artificial. Yet, it is rooted into our identities, that we like it or not.
We portray our reality through euristics... brain shortcuts.
We may "know" that concrete is no different from rock, but we "feel" differently.
So, basically, using an "exotic" animal "is" wrong but "feel" right.
While if the card would have swon a rat, you would have associated it to decay, sickness and garbage. [then someone would have said: no, rats are noble animals, and you - maybe - would have then been able to reach the card with the right part of the brain]

Each card is spinning a tale. It translates (tryes to) between a collective imagery and an unknown direction.
OF COURSE it mangles the true thing!!!
In this thread it seems people are obsessed with "realism" (of the worst kin; I would add).
By the way, one could say: naked/fantasy/exotic = free ; with a corporatr suit = in the system. The dress code in the deck, for instance, is often used to depict the "realm" one is in. It's an easy symbol. And easy means effective.

That was exactly what I was trying to say all those posts ago. Thanks for putting it so well, Ric.

All of these links, all of this "please let me show you why it is wrong", all of these switching as it was the same thing between cultural misappropration, LS sexualization, and the truth of Shaman practices...
...is just a trial (court, jury and executioner).
without even bothering to look at the deck.

I hadn't thought of it that way, this "debate" - but you're right. We all seem to be holding it up against all the other decks in our experience and seeing how it "fits" in the worldview, whether it matches or doesn't. You're asking us to take it on its own terms . . .

For the majority, Ric, I think that's going to be impossible. But I do get it.

\m/ Kat

 

[thorhammer]

I am thinking about sending the pdf to my friends in the international Society of Shamanic practitioners and ask them, what they think...

Why would you do that, Mi-Shell? Seriously - because I think you're just spoiling for a fight, and you want some backup. Just because LS has taken the paradigm of Shamanism and run with it in a direction you don't like, you're holding this deck (and by extension, Ric and LS) up for some sort of mortal test, like when they used to tie a witch to a chair and chuck her in the river - if she floated, she was a witch and "Let's burn her!" and if she sunk . . . well, she must have been a pure soul and she's with God now.

Your refusal to look beyond the face of the image to the symbol set, to the concept that is represented rather than merely the representation, is disappointing - I really did think you had more intuitive intelligence than that. What I read about the White Buffalo Calf Woman suggested that she was a beautiful spirit woman, who engendered desire in men but who was capable of destroying them. The depiction of the pop culture understanding of a beautiful woman in a powerful pose with the animal of her legend is an imaginative and bold undertaking and you have missed the point in your knee-jerk reaction to the boobs.

I'm out. This is making me sicker and sicker.

\m/ Kat

 

[RiccardoLS]

Hi Ric!
Could you sort of fix the Buffalo Lady up with a nicer dress before the deck goes out?

The deck IS out.

Most shamanic practitioners here stated their objections to some of the images.

Most have followed you.
Some have also said that as you had said so and so... then it must be it.

But You have not even looked at the deck, or read the booklet.
You took cards and images out of context, and judged them.
Did you even realized that the deck was not about Native American Shamanism?

What am I to tell my students when they show up with that deck and ask me about these cards?

Tell them it's crap, of course.

Who practices shamanism like that?

Why do you want to assume that the deck wants to be an accurate portrayal of shamantic practices?
Is it so difficult to conceive that "an accurate portrayal of shamantic practices" could not be the only way (and not the best) to address such a topic.

We do. all the nice cards turn sour by a few. That is soooo regretable.

How do you know?
And what about the whole? The idea behind it?
Have you stopped a second to consider it?

I realy wonder who it was, that expert, that you had look at the art. And how come the "White Buffalo thing" I have pointed out was not known to that expert. What is he/ she practicing?

I will listen to what you have to say about the "White Buffalo thing" when you will stop taking that card out of context.
You have pointed ou many things. And many of those were hardly relevant, imho. But you are the guru.

Who do you think will use the deck? For what audience was it meant?

You should answer first. Who do you think will use the deck?
What questions will people using the deck bring to you?
What world will they see through the deck, that you find so offensive?

I am sure many will buy it.
The word shaman sells these days.

1) that was mean
2) if Shaman sells today, good for you.
Not for me.

best regards,

ric

 

[Cat*]

Most shamanic practitioners here stated their objections to some of the images.

Most have followed you.
Some have also said that as you had said so and so... then it must be it.

Riccardo, I am offended by the suggestion that I am merely parroting back what Mi-Shell has said before. I am very capable of forming my own opinion, thank you very much. That could be evidenced by the fact that I have stated my problems with some of the cards back last year, before she had even seen any of them...

Did you even realized that the deck was not about Native American Shamanism?

I would expect that she did, since she has obviously recognized both the "Siberian Ongon drum" and the "Kasakstany drum" (and criticized their appearance in pictures that otherwise show Native American people and/or artefacts)...

thorhammer is the first one (in her most recent post) who has even attempted to explain why the White Buffalo Calf Woman may have been depicted the way she was. Thank you (I mean it). That doesn't change the fact that the image is offensive to some people, but it helps me understand where the creators may have been coming from.

That said, I believe my energy is of better use elsewhere now. So I'm out as well.

 

[Sulis]

Moderator note

This has been an interesting, if heated discussion about the LS Shaman Tarot; a deck that by it's very nature is going to please some people but not others. This thread gives a balanced view of opinions of the deck.
It seems that further discussion will just go round and round and it's probably best for those on both sides of the fence to agree to disagree.

After a bit of discussion amongst the Tarot Decks moderators, we've decided to close this thread but return it to view. No posts have been removed or edited.

Sulis, rwcarter and MeeWah - Tarot Decks co-moderators