Mantegna-Tarocchi-engraver? Sweynheim, Pannartz, Bocking?

Cerulean

One title comes to mind and one link to Baldini images

1. One discussion of various comparisons of the so-called Mantegna Tarocchi in a nice survey book of revivalist Renaissance classicism is in the Pagan Dream of the Renaissance by Josceyn Godwin. The author mentions Baccio Baldini.

2.In finding engraving analysis of Baldini, I'm having some leads to this engraver in terms of web images, including:

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/htdocs/surveys/prints/bytechnique/display00009.html

I've found some information on Florentine Baccio Baldini engraver (died 1487) around the time of Botticelli that did 'fine Florentine engraving' with subjects such as Baccus and Ariadne for labels of spice and perfume bottles that Florentine gallants would present to objects of affection. Charles Dempsey mentions this Baldini in The Portrayal of Love:Humanist culture during the time of Lorenzo the Magnificent.

I notice in some citations, Baldini is a Ferarrese artist or a Florentine engraver.

3. I believe this is from one of the Trionfi.com links, in regards to recent analysis/comparisons:

http://members.iinet.net/~nickl/artb.html

I added the segment speaking of authorship; the entire segment on the website above links to mainly contemporary reproduction samples for the small segment of the so-called Mantegna that deals with the Muses.

Baccio [Bartolommeo] Baldini

Italian goldsmith and engraver active in Ferrara, his designs incorporate figures and motifs derived from Botticelli, Piero Pollaiuolo and also German printmakers, such as the Master E.S. and Martin Schongauer, but particularly from Finiguerra; born ? 1436, buried Florence (1487).

The origin of the designs of the so-called "Tarocchi Cards of Mantegna", is controversial. It has long been thought that they are derived from designs by a Ferrara painter, possibly Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485), for use in the Ducal court. However, Kenneth Clark (see McClean, 1983) has attributed the designs to Parrasio Michele (1516-1578), Master of the School of Ferrara. More recently, Prinke (1990) has argued that the designs were, in fact, by Mantegna himself.

These prints are not Tarocchi as such, but seem to form a sort of instructive game for youth, if not a mere picture-book of popular designs, the subjects represented in the fifty cards of five suits comprising the sorts and conditions of men, Apollo and the Muses, the arts and sciences, the genii and the virtues, the planets and spheres. There are two different sets of prints, the one engraved with much greater precision and finish, in which Nos. L-X. are lettered E, the other to a large extent in reverse and executed in a more careless technique, with Nos. L-X. lettered S.

* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": MVSICHA XXVI, (1465), after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Ref. Limberg (62), see Tibia 2: 92. A personification of Music plays a recorder (between alto and soprano in size); left hand down; window/labium and finger holes clear, including offset little-finger hole; cylindrical in shape with incised ring decoration near bell end. At her feet are a small portative organ, two lutes, and a tenor-sized wind instrument with a slightly flared bell, the mouthpiece hidden (probably a shawm). This bears a close resemblance to other drawings of Musica after Baldini (ca 1470), Capella (1532), and Schlick (1512).
* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": MUSICA (ca 1470), after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Paris: Bibliothèque Nationale. Ref. Hass (1929: 74); Peter (1958: 44); Paris RIdIM (1999). " . . . depicts Musica playing a recorder; on the ground at her feet are a lute, a harp, a double recorder, small fiddle and a regal" (Peter, loc. cit.)

A personification of Music sits on a curved bench, a large swan standing beside her. The recorder is of the Dordrecht kind, the paired holes for the lowermost finger clearly shown and a small raised turning above the foot. The second lute is actually a rebec. Apart from the swan, this work bears a close resemblance to other illustrations of Music after Baldini (ca 1465), Schlick (1512) and in an edition Martianus Capella's De Nuptiis Philologiae et Mercurii (1532).
* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": POESIA XXVII (15th century), after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Paris: Bibliothèque Nationale, Pring Collection. Ref. Mirimonde (?date-4: 280, fig. 26); Paris RIdIM (1999). A female personification of Poetry sits beside a fountain pouring water from a small jug in one hand. In the other hand she holds a cylindrical recorder.
* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": POESIA XXVII, from The Arts and Sciences (ca 1465), engraving, 18 × 10 cm, after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Boston: Museum of Fine Arts ; British Museum London. H.E.I. 27a. Ref. Wiese (188: fig. 51b); Archiv Moeck; Salomon (1972: 218 - b&w); Frings (1999: 167, pl. 8 - b&w). A female personification of Poetry pours a jug of water (or wine) on to the ground with hand, holding in the other a cylindrical slightly flared recorder which shows paired holes for the little finger of the lowermost hand.
* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": MVSICHA XXVI & POESIA XXVII (early 17th century), tarot cards (wrongly attributed to design by Mantegna), after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Ref. Guidobaldi (1990: 41-68). A personification of Music plays a recorder, seated at a bench with a swan. [Cesare Ripa says: "The wind moves the feathers of these birds - they never sing unless Zephyr is blowing."] The instrument is near-cylindrical, with holes, clearly including the low paired holes, and the window is visible. Music has a portative organ, lute, bow and ?rebec on the ground at her feet. Poesia plays a cylindrical duct-flute but with one hand, centrally, three fingers down, little finger beneath, but with a hole showing immediately above.
* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": EVTERPE XVIII (15th century), after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Ref. Fideler (2003). Euterpe leans against a tree playing double pipes (duct-flutes). However, each pipe has seven finger-holes, the lowermost offset. Thus these would seem to be recorders.
* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": MERCVRIO XXXXII (ca 1460 or later), after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Ref. Vasselin (1988: 71); Rowland-Jones (2000c, fig. 2). Facing right, Mercury holds the caduceus in his right hand, a cylindrical duct-flute (the beak evident) in his left hand. Between his winged feet lies the severed head of Argus, the many eyes clearly depicted. In front of him stands a cockerel. A mark at the foot of the recorder may represent an ornamental bead or the offset lower finger-hole of a recorder.
* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": MERCVRIO XXXXII (early 17th century), after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Ref. Bartsch (1854-1870, 9 Supplement, Pass. 4: 145, 32-41). Facing left, Mercury holds the caduceus in his right hand, a cylindrical duct-flute (four lower holes in line), in his left hand with little finger down, others raised. Between his winged feet lies the severed head of Argus, the many eyes clearly depicted. In front of him stands a cockerel. Notes (in part) by Anthony Rowland-Jones (pers. comm., 2000).
* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": MERCURIO XXXXII (contemporary), heat-printed silver, 6 × 12 cm, Atanas Atanassov after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Turin: Lo Scarabeo (publisher). Ref. Little (2001 - col.) From a modern version of these cards published by Lo Scarabeo, faithful to the originals in all the details of symbolism, pose, etc. Coloured with pastels and careful cross-hatched shading on a silver background.
* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": EUTERPE XVIII (contemporary), heat-printed silver, 6 × 12 cm, Atanas Atanassov after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Turin: Lo Scarabeo (publisher). Ref. Little (2001 - col.); Wicce's Tarot Collection (2001 - col.) From a modern version of these cards published by Lo Scarabeo, faithful to the originals in all the details of symbolism, pose, etc. Coloured with pastels and careful cross-hatched shading on a silver background.
* "Tarocchi of Mantegna": POESIA XXVII (contemporary), heat-printed silver, 6 × 12 cm, Atanas Atanassov after Baccio Baldini (op. 1460-1485). Turin: Lo Scarabeo (publisher). Ref. Learning the Tarot (2003 - col.) From a modern version of these cards published by Lo Scarabeo, faithful to the originals in all the details of symbolism, pose, etc. Coloured with pastels and careful cross-hatched shading on a silver background.


If I find something closer, better, I'll post. Hope that helps.

Regards,

Cerulean
 

Ross G Caldwell

wandking said:
It becomes obvious that the Mantegna Images have been under scrutiny for a very long time because written sources dispute their authentisity. Mantegna wasn't the first or likely the last artist to have his works or style copied. In art, a common practice called comparitive analysis is regularly employed to refute or confirm the suspected origins of works. Have the Magtenga images ever been subjected to a comparitive analysis by a respected individual or group?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I can't help you with that question. It appears to me that each historian approaching the topic has looked at the evidence available to them, and made a judgement. I'm sure that the jugdements were well-informed and sound - all of them experts in engraving, such as Lanzi, Zani, and Hind. Hind in particular, being the most modern and thorough, is to be reckoned with. They seem to have no prejudice, and Lanzi even marvels at the series' beauty. Hind's devotion to cataloguing them demonstrates his appreciation of them. If they could have given Mantegna the authorship of the series, in good conscience, I am sure they would have.

Hind appears to be the closest thing to the comparative analysis you speak of.

This is for the authorship question. As for the dating question, that appears much more problematic, as Huck's investigations show.
 

wandking

Once again I see this "instructional childs game" reference. It certainly doesn't take an expert to see these images are more than childs play. If these writers had conclussive proof they were a childrens game they'd have offered it, instead of mimicing the opinions of others.
 

Cerulean

Do you mean this quote? Perhaps this detail will help clarify...

"These prints are not Tarocchi as such, but seem to form a sort of instructive game for youth, if not a mere picture-book of popular designs, the subjects represented in the fifty cards of five suits comprising the sorts and conditions of men, Apollo and the Muses, the arts and sciences, the genii and the virtues, the planets and spheres."

This summary is generic and I am hoping that background that I wrote below is helpful to readers of the above quote.

Given that one of the theories examined in the comparisons noted in the Pagan Dream of the Renaissance suggests this is "a metaphorical ascent of the Soul," I actually do not discount that wellborn "youth"-young men might have been given this picture book allegory. The idea of this being a type of solitaire game match-up using idealized and imaginary portraits of 'the conditions of man" to the soul in paradise might also be ideal for the educated youth.

The engraving samples that I see in the Pagans Dream of the Renaissance, and another book on Florentine art of the time of the 1460s through 1470s were similar to my Dal Negro deck--uncolored, fine detail engravings. The Florentine art book (not pertinent to Mantegna, but a good reference on Humanist culture of the time and Botticelli's art) is The Portrayal of Love by Charles Dempsey, an art historian.

I am not certain if you have the deck from Dal Negro that I posted about in my first message, but if you are inclined, the Tavaglione summary in Italian does have general agreement with the Pagan Dream of the Renaissance writing and the synopsis below:

http://www.trigono.com/tarots/tarocchi-del-mantegna-meneghello.htm

The google English translation - unfortunately the only way I can get the link to translate into English is first going to this page and then clicking on the link--the second page is translated into English for you:
http://translate.google.com/transla...rev=/search?q=trigono+mantegna&hl=en&lr=&sa=G


Also, the idea of this ascent of the soul allegorical game being part of the popular culture of the time spinning on the iconography of poetic humanists known to vernacular speakers and readers since Dante of a century and a half before--that is quite plausible.* The Pagan Dream of the Renaissance does an excellent job of showing surviving art and artifacts in Italian city-states and suggesting other resources for people to research further.

I would enjoy hearing if others have better available art and history resources than I have or can give authors and art samples. I really have tried to point to good suggestions as far as my limitations--and I am interested in others sharing their resources.

Best regards,

Cerulean

P.S.
*(In this time period of 1465-1470, a transition from the intellectual archives of Latin and Greek to the vernacular happened in Ferarra because Borso spoke the Tuscan and possibly French dialects, but did not read Latin or Greek. And it also reminds me, his focus on the Bible and other works forced many artists and artisans of Ferarra to seek employment with other patrons...which would explain why Baldini and engravers from Ferrara would migrate to Florence.)

The tangent above occurred to me, but I lost the thread of why it might be pertinent--it speaks more of Baldini's emigration from Ferrara to Florence and belongs to an earlier post, I believe.
 

Ross G Caldwell

wandking said:
Once again I see this "instructional childs game" reference. It certainly doesn't take an expert to see these images are more than childs play. If these writers had conclussive proof they were a childrens game they'd have offered it, instead of mimicing the opinions of others.
Click to expand...

It's true, there's no proof that the "Mantegna" cards were the "naibi" child's game that Morelli spoke of in 1393. This is a theory that might have been invented by Duchesne around 1836.

The theory has been dropped from interpretation since D'Allemagne wrote in 1906 - he agreed with it then, but no subsequent author that I am aware of has mentioned it.

But just to put the earlier authors like Duchesne in perspective, for them a "children's game" for the elite of the middle ages would not have meant a simple-minded pastime meant to occupy the very young children, but something teaching very important and complex principles for youths just before puberty. There was no public school; the rudiments of education, which we take for granted, were given by tutors - and for the wealthy, these tutors were often the most educated people of the era. Well-educated boys could be expected to be proficient in Latin - which meant exposure to poets as well as prose writers like Cicero - by age 13, both reading and composition. Subjects which are esoteric to modern people - show the Mantegna to just about any adult nowadays (one who hasn't studied the subject), and ask what it "means" - were supposed to be commonplace to a well-educated teenager of the late 15th century. I doubt any teenager could name the order of the planets or a single muse - or any of the virtues - nowadays.

Historians like Duchesne, himself no doubt educated in a similar fashion, knew this, and we have to remember that this is the idea he had of a "child's instructional game" - something actually very profound, not a way to dismiss its importance, as someone of our current era might use the term. None of these authors from Duchesne to D'Allemagne meant to diminish the importance and profundity of the series in any way. They were trying to understand it in the context of the time, when basic education was a very different thing than it is today.
 

wandking

thanks Cerulean

BTW, Cerulean, when I saw your posting last night I was chatting and in MSN chat I typed in "paydirt" because of those well-referenced sites you offered. thanks! Have you checked out their references to make sure they exist? Some sites in the past have used erroneous references but this certainly does not come across as one of those.... I'm kinda doing an experiment like Moakley did, in testing the library as a research platform to investigate Bembo cards, only I've been using the internet to see if it offers accurate info on Tarot history. try not to laugh too hard... yes, there's plenty of extraneous garbage online but there's some good stuff too, like Aeclectic Tarot and sites like you found. Many ancient texts are online and within the public domain at a site by that very name. Again, Crulean, thanks for your response.
 

Huck

Baldini belongs to the persons considered "in theory" as the original engraver of the Mantegna Tarocchi. Where did it start? Who had this idea?
 

Cerulean

Rudopho Renier mentions Baldini

http://www.tarock.info/renier.htm

My apologies, but this is the passage, untranslated for now.

"Ma in materia così ardua io ben mi guardo dallo esprimere una opinione personale. L'Ottley stette per la scuola fiorentina e credette trovarvi la mano di Baccio Baldini o di Sandro Botticelli. Lo Zani, il Pasavant, il Cicognara ed altri ritengono che il giuoco sia di origine veneta e forse più propriamente padovana. Vedi, oltre le opere citate, il bell' album tirato a cento esemplari Die Spielkarten der Weigel'schen Sammlung, Leipzig, Weigel, 1865, pp. 37-38.]. "

The odd thing is if Papus speaks of Baldini and Renier also does this, and if the Baldini images are in the London museums, I'm puzzled about Hind.

But then again, the early 1900 reprints from the historian Edmund G. Gardener, that I like for Ferrarese history, were probably reporting new material. E.G.G. pays tribute to Renier.

Sorry for the mistaken notion of Hind, perhaps he was earlier or just categorizing, not really as interested in details as Papus, E.G.G. and others, who were getting very specific.

Regards,

Cerulean
 
Tarot As The Original Book of Secrets Snail helmet / Sola-Busca and Leber Tarocchi