Huck
Hind thinks "generally", that an engraver of Florence might be responsible for the S-series, which Hind considers as later than the E-series.
Mantegna-Tarocchi-engraver? Sweynheim, Pannartz, Bocking?
wandking
S- series? I've only seen the A,C,D and E series... I've always assumed there was a "B" series somewhere... What images does the "S" series portray? Is there a site where I can view this series?
Huck
wandking said:
There had been two old 15th century engraving-sets of 50 cards each, and one of the main differences were, that one designer used "E" as letter for the first 10 pictures (1-10) and the other the letter "S" for the same series. A-B-C-D for the pictures 50-11 was used in both sets. The motifs also show differences, in most cases the S-series mirrors the E-series and in few cases single motifs are very different. The engraving style differs strongly.
Part of the S-series is in Kaplan, Encyclopedia I, and he has a complete description of all differences.
As it seems, most researchers have agreed, that S-series is later than E-series. S-series is assumed occasionally to have developed in Florence, E-series in Venice or Ferrara.
We assume, that both engraving-sets at all were not the "original", as probably a lot of the single motifs go back to sources of earlier origin, which were not engravings.
There are many processes outside of the Mantegna Tarocchi field observable, that indicate, that engravings were naturally connected to copy processes, either from an object, that the engraver had developed himself, or from the painting, illumination, oil painting etc.. from another artists. Naturally engravings were always copies - the working material was too worthful to be wasted, so the engraving was carefully prepared.
So the engraver is - occasionally - only the final technican, not the creative artist.
kwaw
Huck said:
Why a,b,c,d,s instead of e?
Kaplan speaks of the theory:
Atutto
Battoni
Coppe
Denari
Spadone
While spadoni is the italian word for swords kaplan suggests it is possible the word form espadone was used in venetian dialect within some period. The lazzarelli images seem to be related to the 'S' series, or at least the prima causa [which has the four holy beasts in the corners, as in the 's' series].
Kwaw
wandking
kwaw
Thanks, I guess I better re-read Kaplan, it's been a while. In attempting to post this message I ran across what appears to be a very early posting of yours on de Gebelin and was quite impressed. Do you still hold to those opinions? i ask alot of questions here at Aeclectic because Im working on an overview of Tarot history in a book I wrote, which might have factual errors but not for long. I refuse to submit anything that when published will add to the misconceptions currently running rampant in the accademic area of Tarot. In the card meanings I'm allowed some poetic license; however, history - like news, is no place for factual errors or poetic license. Otherwise, I become no better than Graves who took license to create a triple goddess in the mid 20th century.
Thanks, I guess I better re-read Kaplan, it's been a while. In attempting to post this message I ran across what appears to be a very early posting of yours on de Gebelin and was quite impressed. Do you still hold to those opinions? i ask alot of questions here at Aeclectic because Im working on an overview of Tarot history in a book I wrote, which might have factual errors but not for long. I refuse to submit anything that when published will add to the misconceptions currently running rampant in the accademic area of Tarot. In the card meanings I'm allowed some poetic license; however, history - like news, is no place for factual errors or poetic license. Otherwise, I become no better than Graves who took license to create a triple goddess in the mid 20th century.
Huck
kwaw said:
It's too early to make definite conclusions. L(azzarelli) - E(series) -S(series) have six possibilities to be arranged "correct" in time:
L-E-S - Lazzarelli is prior to E-series and E-series is prior to S-series
L-S-E - etc.
E-L-S - etc.
E-S-L - etc.
S-L-E - etc.
S-E-L - etc.
Reality knows only one "true" interpretation.
We assume, that L is first .... Hind assumed, that E is first and most followed him. We say, that "L is first" is at least similar logical as Hind's hypothesis, and also we say, that this "our" favoured possibility wasn't researched till now.
The prority of E- or S-series is a second question. The 50-motifs-set contains a doge. Would an original Florentian engraver have used a doge and a Venetian dialect? The S-series is suspected to be from Florence - but naturally this is not sure with 100% security. Only the S-series has the Arthmetic motif with a year number 1485 (which is also "not a sure information"). 1485 as the original date for the S-series clealy states, that Lazzarelli is earlier.
Hind says, that the "unknown" engraver of the Ptolemy 1478 (pictures produced earlier from since 1473) is the E-series engraver. The Ptolemy engraver is Sweynheim or "his (possible) pupil" Arnoldus Bucking - it's indestinct, why Hind doesn't know or doesn't accept this. Sweynheim is dead since 1475-1477, but Bucking is alive. So theoritical the E-series might be even later than 1485.
Hind's declaration, that the engraver of the Ptolemy is the engraver of the engraver of the e-series is an opinion worthful to be heard, but not naturally true.
However ... we detected, that Lazzarelli had strong contexts to Rome in the critical time ... this is an argument, which Hind wasn't aware of. So Hind's Ptolemy-hypothesis is strengthened by our indendent research with totally different arguments.
A production in Rome is - on first sight - unlikely cause "doge" and "Venetian dialect". But: there is a strong Venetian delegation in Rome ... the crusade against the Turks is a theme for the current Pope Sixtus IV ... Lazzarelli was in Venice before and had relations there, and he lived in Rome probably in a house of a Venetian. It's not impossible, that Lazzarelli thought of the Venetian market, when he (or one of his sponsors) commissioned the engravings. Also it's possible, that the current Roman-Venetian alliance caused Venetian dialect in Rome.
When Hind is right and Sweynheim is the real engraver, then we've with his death a concrete date: before 1475-1477 the E-series must have been produced.
1475 is a good date. Pope Paul II. had decided in the sixties, that the jubilee should take place all 25 years instead of all 50 years. So 1475 was a jubilee, which means, pilgrimage tourism in Rome. Which means: Possibly enough persons, which buy some engravings. But of course, when Bucking was the deciding artist, than a later date is not impossile.
When Wolgemut and Danhausen in 1493 - 1497 in Nürnberg try to compose a new book with woodcut engravings, which contain Mantegna Tarocchi motifs, they speak of a working title like "Trionfi from Rome" - not from "Trionfi from Venice" .
The medal of Fabritius Varano, working in Rome and later bishop and a Lazzarelli-friend, showed the Mantegna motif Euterpe, and it was produced 1471 - 1482. Rome again.
So this all speaks from:
1471 Lazzarelli (unknown illuminator, possibly from Ferrara, copied Lazzarelli's wild motif collection)
1475 or little before: E-series (Rome, Sweynheim copied already used motifs)
1485 S-series (Florence, "unknown artist", copied and transformed e-series, but knew Lazzarelli's manuscript)
The real original motifs might have had an earlier origin, but perhaps each tells a rather individual story.
In normal Tarot we've the same problem: Most motifs are older, composed out of various contexts.
Following the different motifs for motif Nr. 50, so we've reason to assume, that the producer of the S-series did know Lazzarelli's illuminations. Indeed, one of the Lazzarelli manuscripts was found in Florence. If we know about the way, how it came to this place, we possibly know a little more, who the S-series engraver might have been.
kwaw
kwaw said:
This subject is also being discussed over at TarotL at the moment, and Ross Caldwell has posted the 's' series and lazzarelli 'prima causa' for purpose of comparison here:
http://www.geocities.com/anytarot/mantegnalazzarelli.html
Kwaw
Huck
Further researches to Sweynheim, Pannartz and Bucking
Actual researches of Trionfi.com (autorbis)
######################
Results: not much to the German printers. They are not listed as "artists" in art dictionaries, as far they were requested. Pannartz is said to have been originally from Cologne, Swanheym from Mainz. Bucking, as already mentioned, is a name common in Marburg. Only one source suggests, that Arnoldus Pannartz is identical with Arnoldus Bucking.
Much more data is receivable to Giovanni Andreae Bussi, bishop of Aleria and also to Domitian Calderinus, both noted as important Italian contacts of the three Germans. Each of both has 8-9 pages of biographical data in a requested Italian dictionary. In both biographies the relation to Sweynheim etc. is handled as a minor point (...
Italian biographers naturally do not have good ways to German sources, so this does not really explain, that the contacts weren't important).
Bussi was born 1417 in Vigevano (west and near to Milano). Bussi had 1435 studies in Paris and was present in 1440 at the school of Vittorino da Feltro in Mantua. Filelfo (then in Milan as house scholar of Filippo Maria Visconti) notes him then in a letter as visitor in Milan, too. He had friendly relationship to Teodore da Gaza, learning Greek. Around 1449/1450 he's in Genua and receives money as a teacher. Contacts to pope Nicolaus V. lead him 1451/1452 to Rome. He serves the cardinal Ludovico Trevisani. With Calixtus III. (1455) he becomes "canonicato" of San Ambrogius in Milan. It seems, that there were some enduring hostility between Francesco Sforza and him. He becomes secretary to Nicolaus Cusanus in 1458, a position, which probably prepares his later contacts to the German printers and which makes Bussi familiar to improvements in German printing industry. After the death of pope Pius II. and Cusanus he got churchly functions for Genua (vicario generalein 1464 and was made bishop of Aleria in Corsica in 1466. It seems, that the Milanese hostilities are closed then in Venice in 1466, where Bussi is present.
In 1468 his cooperation with Sweynheim and Pannartz starts and lead Bussi in complex situations of influence on the appearing texts, between these activities also a deeper contact to Pomponio Leto is noted, leading figure of the Accademia Romana, also to Platina, also to Campano, once teacher of Lazzarelli, also exchanges with Filelfo.
In his function as major cooperator with the German printers - who probably both had the handicap of missing experience in Italian language and mentality - it's likely, that Bussi made the major editorial communications to the outside. Also he had the role of the papal librarian, the function, which was taken by Platina in 1475.
Sweynheim and Pannartz parted their business in 1473 and Bussi seems to have concentrated on the further business of Pannartz, and the role for Sweynheim was taken by the much younger Domitian Calderinus. Bussi died
4th of February 1475, 58 years old.
Sweynheim, Pannartz and Domitian Calderinus followed soon, in October 1478 the "unknown" Arnoldus Bucking appears alone as in possession of the worthful edition of the Ptolemy.
Domitian Calderinus (Calderini, Caldarinus) was born in 1446 in Torri del Benaco at the eastside of Lago di Garda near Verona as Domenico, son of Antonio and Margherita di Domenico. He changed his name later according to humanistic customs.
He studied in Verona classical literature with a local humanist, Antonio Brognanino or da Brognoligo, and spend about 2 years in Venice with Benedetto Brugnoli da Legnago, before he left to Rome (about 1466/67), where he was attracted immediately by the Accademia Romana and also the circle around cardinal Bessarion. Perhaps he's identical to a "Domitius", addressed by two epigrams of Filippo Callimaco Esperiente, who was accused in 1468 and had to flee the attack of Pope Paul II. in 1468 on the Accademia Romana. First publication experiences are noted since 1469 and then variously. A contact to Bussi (see above) is recorded for February 1469, another to Giorgios of Trapezund, and an involvement in the conflict between Bessarion to Trapezund. Another mentioned contact is Campano, once teacher to Lazzarelli. As secretary to Bessarion he accompanied the cardinal to his mission to France in 1472, where Bessarion tried successly to get help against the crusade against the Turks. He should have been in Urbino at least once,as he describes the palace. After the death of Bessarion (November 1472) he was involved in the circle of cardinal Pietro Riario, nephew of Sixtus IV., whose extravagant festivities in 1473 astonished Italia, especially the banquet in honour of Eleanore of Naples on her way to Ferrara at 7th of July 1473. During a visit from July till 14th September 1473 (Riario became archbishop of Florence then, reason for further exclusive festivities) he became acquainted to the 8 years younger poet Poliziano in Florence, a very interesting relation, as Poliziano later lived in the house of Calderino in Torri and died there (1494), long after the early death of Calderino (1478), also to Lorenzo de Medici and the other Florentian humanists.
Various publication activities are recorded for the year 1474, his cooperation with Sweynheim, which is said to have started in 1473, can have taken only a small part of his energies. The young cardinal and sponsor Pietro Riario (28 years) died 5th of January, but the death seems to have affected Calderinus' career only slightly and the relation to the papal family stays good, at 27th of June 1474 Calderinus becomes "segretario apostolico", and is now active mostly in the surrounding of another nephew of the pope, cardinal Giuliano Della Rovere, later pope Julius II, which leads later to another visit and longer stay to France (February - till September 1476 in Lyon). An interest in mythological themes becomes obvious in these years ... something, which is the major topic of Lazzarelli.
He died, probably, in June 1478 during a peste.
Bussi and Calderinus appear as central Roman persons, who manage a lot of literary activities, their involvement in the printing business of Sweynheim and Pannartz is that of the publical agents, they build the bridge to the papal society, but by far it is not their only or their major occupation. In the case, that Lazzarelli was in Rome in the critical time, it's likely, that both would have known him, probably cause they knew likely everybody in Rome in the scene of literature during this time.
Researches to the Mantegna Tarocchi in development:
http://trionfi.com/0/gg
Actual researches of Trionfi.com (autorbis)
######################
Results: not much to the German printers. They are not listed as "artists" in art dictionaries, as far they were requested. Pannartz is said to have been originally from Cologne, Swanheym from Mainz. Bucking, as already mentioned, is a name common in Marburg. Only one source suggests, that Arnoldus Pannartz is identical with Arnoldus Bucking.
Much more data is receivable to Giovanni Andreae Bussi, bishop of Aleria and also to Domitian Calderinus, both noted as important Italian contacts of the three Germans. Each of both has 8-9 pages of biographical data in a requested Italian dictionary. In both biographies the relation to Sweynheim etc. is handled as a minor point (...
Italian biographers naturally do not have good ways to German sources, so this does not really explain, that the contacts weren't important).Bussi was born 1417 in Vigevano (west and near to Milano). Bussi had 1435 studies in Paris and was present in 1440 at the school of Vittorino da Feltro in Mantua. Filelfo (then in Milan as house scholar of Filippo Maria Visconti) notes him then in a letter as visitor in Milan, too. He had friendly relationship to Teodore da Gaza, learning Greek. Around 1449/1450 he's in Genua and receives money as a teacher. Contacts to pope Nicolaus V. lead him 1451/1452 to Rome. He serves the cardinal Ludovico Trevisani. With Calixtus III. (1455) he becomes "canonicato" of San Ambrogius in Milan. It seems, that there were some enduring hostility between Francesco Sforza and him. He becomes secretary to Nicolaus Cusanus in 1458, a position, which probably prepares his later contacts to the German printers and which makes Bussi familiar to improvements in German printing industry. After the death of pope Pius II. and Cusanus he got churchly functions for Genua (vicario generalein 1464 and was made bishop of Aleria in Corsica in 1466. It seems, that the Milanese hostilities are closed then in Venice in 1466, where Bussi is present.
In 1468 his cooperation with Sweynheim and Pannartz starts and lead Bussi in complex situations of influence on the appearing texts, between these activities also a deeper contact to Pomponio Leto is noted, leading figure of the Accademia Romana, also to Platina, also to Campano, once teacher of Lazzarelli, also exchanges with Filelfo.
In his function as major cooperator with the German printers - who probably both had the handicap of missing experience in Italian language and mentality - it's likely, that Bussi made the major editorial communications to the outside. Also he had the role of the papal librarian, the function, which was taken by Platina in 1475.
Sweynheim and Pannartz parted their business in 1473 and Bussi seems to have concentrated on the further business of Pannartz, and the role for Sweynheim was taken by the much younger Domitian Calderinus. Bussi died
4th of February 1475, 58 years old.
Sweynheim, Pannartz and Domitian Calderinus followed soon, in October 1478 the "unknown" Arnoldus Bucking appears alone as in possession of the worthful edition of the Ptolemy.
Domitian Calderinus (Calderini, Caldarinus) was born in 1446 in Torri del Benaco at the eastside of Lago di Garda near Verona as Domenico, son of Antonio and Margherita di Domenico. He changed his name later according to humanistic customs.
He studied in Verona classical literature with a local humanist, Antonio Brognanino or da Brognoligo, and spend about 2 years in Venice with Benedetto Brugnoli da Legnago, before he left to Rome (about 1466/67), where he was attracted immediately by the Accademia Romana and also the circle around cardinal Bessarion. Perhaps he's identical to a "Domitius", addressed by two epigrams of Filippo Callimaco Esperiente, who was accused in 1468 and had to flee the attack of Pope Paul II. in 1468 on the Accademia Romana. First publication experiences are noted since 1469 and then variously. A contact to Bussi (see above) is recorded for February 1469, another to Giorgios of Trapezund, and an involvement in the conflict between Bessarion to Trapezund. Another mentioned contact is Campano, once teacher to Lazzarelli. As secretary to Bessarion he accompanied the cardinal to his mission to France in 1472, where Bessarion tried successly to get help against the crusade against the Turks. He should have been in Urbino at least once,as he describes the palace. After the death of Bessarion (November 1472) he was involved in the circle of cardinal Pietro Riario, nephew of Sixtus IV., whose extravagant festivities in 1473 astonished Italia, especially the banquet in honour of Eleanore of Naples on her way to Ferrara at 7th of July 1473. During a visit from July till 14th September 1473 (Riario became archbishop of Florence then, reason for further exclusive festivities) he became acquainted to the 8 years younger poet Poliziano in Florence, a very interesting relation, as Poliziano later lived in the house of Calderino in Torri and died there (1494), long after the early death of Calderino (1478), also to Lorenzo de Medici and the other Florentian humanists.
Various publication activities are recorded for the year 1474, his cooperation with Sweynheim, which is said to have started in 1473, can have taken only a small part of his energies. The young cardinal and sponsor Pietro Riario (28 years) died 5th of January, but the death seems to have affected Calderinus' career only slightly and the relation to the papal family stays good, at 27th of June 1474 Calderinus becomes "segretario apostolico", and is now active mostly in the surrounding of another nephew of the pope, cardinal Giuliano Della Rovere, later pope Julius II, which leads later to another visit and longer stay to France (February - till September 1476 in Lyon). An interest in mythological themes becomes obvious in these years ... something, which is the major topic of Lazzarelli.
He died, probably, in June 1478 during a peste.
Bussi and Calderinus appear as central Roman persons, who manage a lot of literary activities, their involvement in the printing business of Sweynheim and Pannartz is that of the publical agents, they build the bridge to the papal society, but by far it is not their only or their major occupation. In the case, that Lazzarelli was in Rome in the critical time, it's likely, that both would have known him, probably cause they knew likely everybody in Rome in the scene of literature during this time.
Researches to the Mantegna Tarocchi in development:
http://trionfi.com/0/gg
wandking
thanks for the link, kwaw.... that's good stuff from Ross, The four cherubs from Ezekiel and Revalations in the corners wowed me.... I'd never really gotten a close look at that image... It's the Universe, right? Similar to more modern Tarot iconography, like the RWS Wheel of Fortune and World cards. Those are some pretty solid run-downs on true roots of Mantenga Huck, keep up the good work.
I wonder where these four cherubs appeared next in print. Hmmm, I suspect the RWS picked them up from another Tarot but obviously not Visconti.
I wonder where these four cherubs appeared next in print. Hmmm, I suspect the RWS picked them up from another Tarot but obviously not Visconti.
kwaw
wandking said:
The four cherubs on the RWS WoF bear close comparison with the mantegna/lazzarelli; waite does mention the mantegna as if familiar with it and so it is possibly the source of the WoF kerubic images in RWS WoF.
Kwaw
