??? Maxwell <-> Grimaud <-> Arnoult <-> Marteau ???

[coredil]

In his book Maxwell makes a very precise description of the colors used in the cards.
The colors he describes match quite exactly the 1880 (1890?) color scheme used by Camoin on his 1968 Conver reproduction.

BTW These are mostly the same colors Marteau uses in his deck.
(Not completely, here and there one can find differences)

 

[agedog1]

Check out my thread regarding the Kaplan auction (Posted today). This item is up."[doubleday,Abner], Tarot MSS, Circa 1870s-1885, 257pp., includes detailed descriptions of tarot symbolism, much material translated from French sources, hand drawn diagrams tipped in, and 78 hand colored cares pasted at rear of book.
Estimated $8,000 - 10,000" (us. dollars, doesn't say but since it's being auctioned in New York I'm pretty sure it's dollars)

I have actually seen it Live, and is very awesome. The catalog (which includes pictures and discriptions of all the articles in the collection that are being auctioned) isn't available yet (I called to order one $35.00)

wish I have $10,000 laying around I sure would go for this.

Also, up is the "Visconti-sForza, Male Page of Staves Tarocchi Card, Milan circa 1450, attributed to Bonifacio Bembo Estimate - $10,000 - $15,000"

Quote from the handout
."....a gold-tooled Visconti-Sforza tarocchi card from the 15th Century; ...early 19th Century Tarot cards depicting the life of Napoleon; a rare French anti-royalist tarot pack circa 1795 with the suits changed to liberty and equality... The stunning sale catalog in full color contains detailed descriptions and background stories to many of the items and is intended to serve as an important reference long after the auction"

I didn't count but I am taking a gestimate that there are about 250 item up for auction.

This is so exciting, just wanted to share it here.

 

[kenji]

Hello (again), coredil

I own a "Grimaud-Arnoult 1748" deck as well, and I can give you some information about it.

You know, the colour schemes are quite different from Marteau TdM.
As to the drawings: apart from JUNON & JUPITER, it has several slight differences from 1930 Marteau deck .

1. LE BATELEUR has an acorn-like thing in his right hand.
2. The initials in the front shield of LE CHARIOT are "V.T". (Same as Conver)
3. The 9 buttons of the clothes of LE PENDU are differently disposed ("5 + 4", not "6 + 3").
4. LE DIABLE sticks out his tongue & has no male organ.
5. In LE SOLEIL, the droplets are going UP (as in Conver).
6. The angel at the upper left of LE MONDE is bearded.
7. Just like Conver, the 2 of Cups has a coat of arms (with fleurs-de-lis, but without the initials "G M") at the bottom.


HISTORICAL NOTES:
This deck was created after Baptiste-Paul Grimaud bought up the Paris cardmaker "Lequart & Mignot" in 1891.

According to the catalogue of the Cary collection, the silp case of this deck (which I don't have) has the title "TAROT ITALIEN".

It seems this deck had been produced until 1920's.
Almost undoubtedly, the deck which was mentioned in "LE TAROT" (3rd edition 1913) by J.G.Bourgeat and "LE TAROT EGYPTIEN" (1922) by Elie Alta as "tarot italien" is this deck.
And the Cary specimen must have been made 1909 - 1917 or 1922 - c1929.
(Judging from the 1890 tax stamp and the company name "Chartier, Marteau et Boudin", which was used from 1909.)

I'll post about Lequart's "Arnoult 1748" deck later.


kenji

 

[coredil]

Hello Kenji,

how nice that you take time to give so precious informations.
I am very glad about it

About the drawings:
I thought about the graphic differences you described and tried to imagine how it can look like.
Fortunately I could find on Camoin site some other scans of the Arnoult-Grimaud.
http://www.camoin.com/fr/ancient/besancon/besancon.asp

So I can see what you describe on LE BATELEUR and LE MONDE.

If these are the only differences, I would still stay with my believing that the line drawings (except these minor changes and Juno & Jupiter cards) are exactly the same.

I read with interess the historical notes you provide and I am very curious about the information you have on Arnoult.
I tried to find more informations but could not find much.
And except the Two Deniers scan JMD posted on this thread
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=35369&highlight=arnoult
I also could not find any pictures of an original Arnoult.

BTW I find it nice that on the Two Deniers from Marteaus deck there is still the year 1748 as on the scan JMD provided


Best regards

 

[Lee]

Thank you, kenji! I also am looking forward to any info about Arnoult and his deck.

Another difference I noticed between the Arnoult deck and the Grimaud (my Grimaud is the bilingual one, I don't have the 1930):

In L'AMOUREUX, the Grimaud's lover has bare feet, while the Arnoult has shoes/slippers (mismatched!).

-- Lee

 

[kenji]

About "Arnoult 1748"

Most probably the cardmaker Arnoult (active 1824-1864) didn't produced any TdM deck, and nor did Charles Maurin (active 1864-1872 as Arnoult's successor).

It seems it was Lequart, who bought up Maurin in 1872, that first made the "tarot of Besancon" deck with the inscription "Arnoult 1748".
Luckily I can refer to the coloured images of 22 trumps of Lequart deck (courtesy of my acquaintance). As to the colour schemes: some cards are similar to "Grimaud-Arnoult", and others are not. Meanwhile, the drawings seem all the same, with only one exception: LE CHARIOT. In LE CHARIOT of Lequart deck, the shield (with initials) attached to the front of the cart is totally gone.

In addition, this card (Lequart's LE CHARIOT) has an interesting point: the left horse is painted RED and the right one BLUE, just like Marteau deck. You know, in most TdM decks the two horses have the same colour ("Grimaud-Arnoult" also -- both greyish colour). Jean Noblet is an exception.

more later...

Another difference I noticed between the Arnoult deck and the Grimaud (my Grimaud is the bilingual one, I don't have the 1930):

In L'AMOUREUX, the Grimaud's lover has bare feet, while the Arnoult has shoes/slippers (mismatched!).

Hello, Lee! It's been a long time. How have you been?
I hear you are working on an ENGLISH TdM book.
I'm really looking forward to it...

As to your finding, you are quite right!
Maybe there are more...?

kenji

 

[coredil]

Kenji your observations are fascinating!
Now one can explain why the horses are red and blue on Marteaus deck

I would really love to see more cards from this Lequart deck!
I would really like to know how are the line drawings too.

Do you maybe know who made the Grimaud-Arnoult?
(Maybe the very young Paul Marteau )

Best regards

 

[Lee]

Hello, Lee! It's been a long time. How have you been?
I hear you are working on an ENGLISH TdM book.
I'm really looking forward to it...

Hi kenji, well, don't look forward to it too much... my little book is only 65 pages, and I don't even begin to have your knowledge on the subject!

-- Lee

 

[Lee]

I want to make sure I understand the case as it's been presented so far...

As I understand it (and I'm sure I'm mistaken in several respects and would be delighted to be corrected):

In 1889 or 1890, Lequart created a Tarot de Besancon deck (let's call this the "Lequart-Arnoult" for convenience), and inscribed the 2 of Derniers "Arnoult 1748" (because in 1872 Lequart acquired a company which had begun with Arnoult in 1748 [perhaps an ancestor of the Arnoult active in 1824-1864 mentioned by kenji? The Arnoult active in 1748-1750 is mentioned in Kaplan]). This deck follows the linework of the Conver Marseille, but substitutes Junon and Jupiter for the Popess and Pope, and uses cheerful pastel colors.

At some point between 1889 and 1930, the Grimaud company issues its own version of the Lequart deck (the "Grimaud-Arnoult"), changing some of the colors and adding back in the missing shield from the Chariot.

In 1930, Paul Marteau, then head of Grimaud, produces a new Marseille deck by taking the linework of the Grimaud-Arnoult deck, replacing the Junon and Jupiter cards with Popess and Pope cards from Conver's linework, and replacing Lequart's pastel colors with more traditional Marseille-type coloring.

Tell me where I've gone wrong...

-- Lee

P.S. I won't be able to include this info in my book, the manuscript has already been delivered...

 

[Rusty Neon]

P.S. I won't be able to include this info in my book, the manuscript has already been delivered...

You might still be able to have the publisher include the internet link to this thread.