Rusty Neon
I still don't understand why it's thought that the "Arnout" deck was the basis for the linework of the Marteau Grimaud deck. To me, the linework of the 1760 Conver deck looks like a good match to the Marteau Grimaud.
??? Maxwell <-> Grimaud <-> Arnoult <-> Marteau ???
coredil
Hello Rusty-Neon,
the similitude is so clear to my eyes that I thought everybody would see it
Well, it is not the case, so I will try to explain what I mean.
For convenience I use A for the Grimaud-Arnoult deck
M for the 1947 Marteau deck
H for the Heron photo reproduction of the conver
C for the Camoin from-woodblock-1968-edition of the Conver
All left and right description are from the viewer perspective
I cant point to similitude in general because, to me all line drawings are similar
But I will point to details who, in the reproductions, are clearly different from the Conver model.
This is where some details have been "re-drawn" in A and M.
This "re-drawing" is not coming from the Conver model but is a own creative act from the "re-drawers"
Now "seeing" that this particular "re-drawings " (the artists choose one of multiple possibility) are absolutely identical in both A and M leads me to the statement that the same line drawings (print-plates or whatever) have been used for both decks.
1. First of all the similitude of all the faces, the titles and the Numbers in A & M is very striking.
2. LA LUNE
. The circle of the moon and how the face of the moon is placed in the circle
are identical in A & M. In H & C you can clearly see a crescent (Un croissant)
. No line in the middle on top of the left towerin A & M, one line in H & C
. Between the two dogs, near bei their feet: a little linie with a dot by A & M
Something like a stone bei H & C
3. L'AMOUREUX
. The tip of the arrow from the angel has the same placement and lenght in A & M
Much smaller and not so near to the lovers head in H & C
. Above the head of the left woman, a sun ray touches her head the same way in A & M
In H & C this ray has clearly a tip.
. Though the right wing of the engel first looks completely different in A & M,
looking further, one can see that the upper side of the wings are identical.
In A, the wing is not large enough and part of the sun should be the wing,
But one can see the same line drawing for the upper tip of the bow
. The 4 faces are so identical in A & M and quite different in H & C
4. LA ROUE DE FORTUNE
. Titles!
. The tail of the left animal without lines inside in A & M
. The tail of the right animals: 2 lines inside coming from the bottom in A & M
. The shadow in the bottom of the ?? (red middle of the wheel) the lines are identical and dont touch the upper Shadowlines in A & M
5. LE MONDE
. The linies to produce the shadow on the left arm
. The shadow on the abdomen near the scarf is not there in A & M but present in H & C
. On the bottom of the left angel there is something in the clouds that you could call a hand coming from a sleeve in A & M
In H & C the "sleeve" is quite different.
...
I would say it is enough.
I sadly dont have the Arnoult-Grimaud deck but I guess one could find many details.
To me, these are much too much coincidences.
I cant believe that the "hasard" has leaded 2 different artists to re-draw (re-create) exactly the same way!
No way for this in my head
Best regards
the similitude is so clear to my eyes that I thought everybody would see it
Well, it is not the case, so I will try to explain what I mean.
For convenience I use A for the Grimaud-Arnoult deck
M for the 1947 Marteau deck
H for the Heron photo reproduction of the conver
C for the Camoin from-woodblock-1968-edition of the Conver
All left and right description are from the viewer perspective
I cant point to similitude in general because, to me all line drawings are similar
But I will point to details who, in the reproductions, are clearly different from the Conver model.
This is where some details have been "re-drawn" in A and M.
This "re-drawing" is not coming from the Conver model but is a own creative act from the "re-drawers"
Now "seeing" that this particular "re-drawings " (the artists choose one of multiple possibility) are absolutely identical in both A and M leads me to the statement that the same line drawings (print-plates or whatever) have been used for both decks.
1. First of all the similitude of all the faces, the titles and the Numbers in A & M is very striking.
2. LA LUNE
. The circle of the moon and how the face of the moon is placed in the circle
are identical in A & M. In H & C you can clearly see a crescent (Un croissant)
. No line in the middle on top of the left towerin A & M, one line in H & C
. Between the two dogs, near bei their feet: a little linie with a dot by A & M
Something like a stone bei H & C
3. L'AMOUREUX
. The tip of the arrow from the angel has the same placement and lenght in A & M
Much smaller and not so near to the lovers head in H & C
. Above the head of the left woman, a sun ray touches her head the same way in A & M
In H & C this ray has clearly a tip.
. Though the right wing of the engel first looks completely different in A & M,
looking further, one can see that the upper side of the wings are identical.
In A, the wing is not large enough and part of the sun should be the wing,
But one can see the same line drawing for the upper tip of the bow
. The 4 faces are so identical in A & M and quite different in H & C
4. LA ROUE DE FORTUNE
. Titles!
. The tail of the left animal without lines inside in A & M
. The tail of the right animals: 2 lines inside coming from the bottom in A & M
. The shadow in the bottom of the ?? (red middle of the wheel) the lines are identical and dont touch the upper Shadowlines in A & M
5. LE MONDE
. The linies to produce the shadow on the left arm
. The shadow on the abdomen near the scarf is not there in A & M but present in H & C
. On the bottom of the left angel there is something in the clouds that you could call a hand coming from a sleeve in A & M
In H & C the "sleeve" is quite different.
...
I would say it is enough.
I sadly dont have the Arnoult-Grimaud deck but I guess one could find many details.
To me, these are much too much coincidences.
I cant believe that the "hasard" has leaded 2 different artists to re-draw (re-create) exactly the same way!
No way for this in my head
Best regards
Lee
Not to take away from coredil's analysis, but I think the simple answer is, the Arnoult deck was created (in 1890) by following the lines of the Conver. The Marteau Grimaud was created (in 1930) using the linework of the Arnoult. QED, the Marteau Grimaud follows the Conver (but indirectly, through the Arnoult, rather than directly).Rusty Neon said:
-- Lee
Fulgour
thanks coredil
(((Synchronicity))) hehehe ~ But what fun to read the
insights you have posted, as I enjoy my 'new' old book.
Amicalement,
~Fulgour
The day after you started this thread, my copy arrived.coredil said:
(((Synchronicity))) hehehe ~ But what fun to read the
insights you have posted, as I enjoy my 'new' old book.
Amicalement,
~Fulgour
coredil
Hello Fulgour,
I am glad for you that you could find a copy of this book.
I find Joseph Maxwell very interesting.
I dont want to make the english translation bad, but I think one should take it with care.
If I remember well, ATF member Diana have already mentioned that there are innacuracies in the translation.
To me Maxwell writing is much more than the available translation.
And with the little example I mentioned, one can see the translator changed quite a lot of things.
Having in thought how details can be important, I have the feeling that this translation may lead to wrong results.
On the other side, it is one of the rare text in english on TdM.
Also the translator and editor gave a wrong picture of J. Maxwell ommiting his really impressive bibliography.
I already mentioned the bibliography but forgot to mention that this is even a commented bibliography!
So you find some comments on a lot of books he mentions.
Sure, these are only a few words, but one does not find this everywhere.
Feel free to ask me about Maxwell french text if you find something strange.
BTW I have two editions of Maxwells book.
The one I already mentioned is from 1933 and probably the original first printing.
And I also have a reedition from:
ARCHÉ, Collection Sebastiani, MILANO 1984
In this newer edition, there is even a Préface from H.J. Maxwell.
I suppose H.J. Maxwell is a family member from Joseph Maxwell.
Best regards
I am glad for you that you could find a copy of this book.
I find Joseph Maxwell very interesting.
I dont want to make the english translation bad, but I think one should take it with care.
If I remember well, ATF member Diana have already mentioned that there are innacuracies in the translation.
To me Maxwell writing is much more than the available translation.
And with the little example I mentioned, one can see the translator changed quite a lot of things.
Having in thought how details can be important, I have the feeling that this translation may lead to wrong results.
On the other side, it is one of the rare text in english on TdM.
Also the translator and editor gave a wrong picture of J. Maxwell ommiting his really impressive bibliography.
I already mentioned the bibliography but forgot to mention that this is even a commented bibliography!
So you find some comments on a lot of books he mentions.
Sure, these are only a few words, but one does not find this everywhere.
Feel free to ask me about Maxwell french text if you find something strange.
BTW I have two editions of Maxwells book.
The one I already mentioned is from 1933 and probably the original first printing.
And I also have a reedition from:
ARCHÉ, Collection Sebastiani, MILANO 1984
In this newer edition, there is even a Préface from H.J. Maxwell.
I suppose H.J. Maxwell is a family member from Joseph Maxwell.
Best regards
Lee
Thank you kenji. Quite fascinating. We are all in your debt.
-- Lee
-- Lee
Moonbow
Thank you Kenji
Such beautiful cards, and the colours! I have really enjoyed looking at these.
Wonderful thread too coredil, and everyone.
Such beautiful cards, and the colours! I have really enjoyed looking at these.
Wonderful thread too coredil, and everyone.
coredil
Merci beaucoup Kenji
These are wonderful pictures and also very interesting.
At first sight it confirms that Arnoult-Grimaud = Marteau TdM.
Such a colorfull deck!
These are wonderful pictures and also very interesting.
At first sight it confirms that Arnoult-Grimaud = Marteau TdM.
Such a colorfull deck!
Abrac
This is all very interesting indeed. I won't pretend I understand a whole lot of it at this point, but it's fascinating to learn about. Seems nothing happens in a vacuum. It's cool to see how one thing leads to another.
-fof
-fof
