Minors, pips, elements, social order

[Hooked on TdM]

For the elements (earth, air, fire water) I actually just went by our Canadian seasons. Earth/Winter is coins (everything is so solid in the winter here, it also looks really flat with all the snow which means you occasionally fall into four foot holes while out in the bush or fields,) Wands are fire/Autumn (you just have to take one look at our beautiful leaves, moons, sunrises and sunsets to get this.. on top of trees and wands look an awful lot alike,) Swords are summer/air (swords are forged in heat and cut, well summer is hot, we get sunburns..etc,) and Cups are Water/spring (everything flows in the spring, snow, mud, muck, water.. you get the picture.)

So I'm using this because it makes sense to me here with what I know of that land I live in.

Hooked

Oh I wanted to add I really like the association with the classes (noble, merchant etc.). The more I learn the merrier! So thank you for that...

 

[The crowned one]

For the elements (earth, air, fire water) I actually just went by our Canadian seasons. Earth/Winter is coins (everything is so solid in the winter here, it also looks really flat with all the snow which means you occasionally fall into four foot holes while out in the bush or fields,) Wands are fire/Autumn (you just have to take one look at our beautiful leaves, moons, sunrises and sunsets to get this.. on top of trees and wands look an awful lot alike,) Swords are summer/air (swords are forged in heat and cut, well summer is hot, we get sunburns..etc,) and Cups are Water/spring (everything flows in the spring, snow, mud, muck, water.. you get the picture.)

So I'm using this because it makes sense to me here with what I know of that land I live in.

Hooked

Oh I wanted to add I really like the association with the classes (noble, merchant etc.). The more I learn the merrier! So thank you for that...

Now that IS intresting to me, and really just a valid as any system out there. I like it and it is a pretty strong thing to do.

As far as class or caste systems go there is more then one but one of the earliest is based off of the Mamluk playing cards: priest class, enforcing the law and carrying RODS then we have the Kings/Warriors, this is the authority enforcers SWORDS and we have those who served:COIN and lastly those who improved, skilled labour being cups.

The four virtues system I mentioned is Coins/prudence then the sword of Justice followed by the Cup of temperance and last the Rod of fortitude..

There are so many more theories to the origins of the suits but these are pretty popular with historians. Keep in mind the association with class may not run across suit but rather from 1 to 10! we just do not know.

 

[Hooked on TdM]

Thanks Crowned, I did not know that.. I guess I will have to explore those...

As a fellow Canuck, hehe you can appreciate the seasons!

Hooked

 

[Splungeman]

Now that IS intresting to me, and really just a valid as any system out there. I like it and it is a pretty strong thing to do.

As far as class or caste systems go there is more then one but one of the earliest is based off of the Mamluk playing cards: priest class, enforcing the law and carrying RODS then we have the Kings/Warriors, this is the authority enforcers SWORDS and we have those who served:COIN and lastly those who improved, skilled labour being cups.

I was under the impression that the mamluks are where we get our pip symbols from in the first place. I believe it was Coins, Cups, Scimitars, Batons (some say polo sticks). Batons being what we'd call today a riding crop. Polo sticks don't change the meaning too much...it still has to do with horsemanship. To the mamluks all of these were basic necessities of life. Your sword, your horse, wealth, and nourishment! This is my favorite way of interpreting the meanings...down to their basic meanings as they were in the beginning, stripped of mystical stuff. To me it is actually more flexible that way and more down to earth, as I believe the pips should be. The Majors are for all the bigger, more transcendent, mystical themes of life. The pips and court cards are for the basic things in life...the nitty gritty, as it were.

 

[Hooked on TdM]

I looked up mamluk because I have no idea what that is.. according to what I can find they were slaves converted to muslim or islam that became warriors. Is that what you mean by mamluk?

Hook

 

[The crowned one]

I was under the impression that the mamluks are where we get our pip symbols from in the first place. I believe it was Coins, Cups, Scimitars, Batons (some say polo sticks). Batons being what we'd call today a riding crop. Polo sticks don't change the meaning too much...it still has to do with horsemanship. To the mamluks all of these were basic necessities of life. Your sword, your horse, wealth, and nourishment! This is my favorite way of interpreting the meanings...down to their basic meanings as they were in the beginning, stripped of mystical stuff. To me it is actually more flexible that way and more down to earth, as I believe the pips should be. The Majors are for all the bigger, more transcendent, mystical themes of life. The pips and court cards are for the basic things in life...the nitty gritty, as it were.

I simplified it a bit and pushed history together but the Batons were a heraldic emblems of distinction as were the other "suits" at one time and therefore easily understood and recognizable "suits" for this early deck.

I have not heard of the riding crop before. I would like to hear more.

The Polo stick it ties into religious and mystic teaching by some influential writers of the period and Khayyam uses it as a analogy of our helplessness (a ball and stick thing). Over time this became the "rod" of the Huristar. A ceremonial rod of thier office.

When you say "Your sword, your horse, wealth, and nourishment" i like the idea of the equality that suggests but I think it was more like who has the swords, who owns the wealth, who grows the food and the horse interpretation i would change to the "rod" and "who makes the law"

I think I am too tired to write the page or three needed to express what I have read in the past and accept as true but I hope I get my idea across within these few paragraphs for now.

 

[The crowned one]

I looked up mamluk because I have no idea what that is.. according to what I can find they were slaves converted to muslim or islam that became warriors. Is that what you mean by mamluk?

Hook

Look up the Mamluk Sultanate from 1250-1517...they more then once took over power.

 

[Hooked on TdM]

Thanks I found it.

However my simple can-not-grasp-history mind is now very confused. How did the idea or system of mamluk end up in France/Italy cards?

Hooked

 

[The crowned one]

Thanks I found it.

However my simple can-not-grasp-history mind is now very confused. How did the idea or system of mamluk end up in France/Italy cards?

Hooked

Crusades perhaps?

 

[firecatpickles]

Has anyone else jettisoned the classical elemental associations with the pips or am I in the minority?

I have.

Spades/Swords = Water
Clubs/Wands = Earth
Diamonds/Coins = Fire
hearts/Cups = Air

Seems to work for me.

But this is with decks that don't have previously assigned meanings. For example, it is difficult for me to not associate the RWS cup with water.