Richard
Crowley was a unifier. He masterfully dealt with the disparity between the historical and Golden Dawn decks, but I think he was
a bit too enthusiastic about unifying the various traditions with which he was in accord.
Mixing Together Esoteric Traditions
a bit too enthusiastic about unifying the various traditions with which he was in accord.
vee
LOL, I'm not so sure either. But Tarot is a part of that world, so I think it's rather impossible to escape these kinds of issues when the "masters" of the past did the same thing.
Zephyros
Like vee said, all esoteric history is an mix of different cultures, and in fact, I believe most paths to enlightenment share the same purpose and method. Trances, colors, hallucinogenics, repetition... all these are things that exist in most cultures, while their purpose in, in some way, to unite with the Divine.
I have written this in the Totems thread that while people get their feathers ruffled at this or that native culture being appropriated, few ask themselves about doctrines that were appropriated in the past and have been fused into the Western Mystery Tradition. Kabbalah is a prime example of this. Many people who are not Jewish study it, and I must admit I do in a non-religious capacity, but there is no doubt that it is inherently Jewish. It is just difficult to get around. In addition, what is taught in the West is merely one school of Kabbalah, of which there are many, dealing with such diverse topics as sex, actual magick, society, talismans that do not include a red string... really, it's just so big, and anyone looking for New Age appropriation, look no further.
However, the Golden Dawn, and others took it, codified it and made it somewhat easier to understand, and I do thank them for it. Just this morning I read Crowley saying in Magick Without Tears that he had no interest in Jewish theology or ritual, but did use Kabbalah daily. Now, honestly, I think that's a ridiculous statement; it is practically impossible to separate the two (the Tetragrammaton is part of Jewish theology, the "oneness" of God in Kabbalah... in short, most of the most learned (Jewish) Kabbalists were quick to point out that nothing they wrote contradicted the Torah, although at times it may seem like it.
Now, the point I'm trying to get to is that I am all for quilting a unified worldview made of many parts, but like any Tarot deck, my motto is simple: do the work, do the homework, if you have something to show for it, great. Crowley did when he fused Kabbalah with Thelema, alchemy with the Three Gunas and in a number of different ways. However, unless you really, really know what you're doing, the results could be ridiculous, and usually are. Waite did it well, so did Mathers, Wescott and Crowley. I have yet to see, even among acclaimed Tarot authors, anything coming close to that level.
I think that in many respects, New Age has nothing to do with spirituality, but with making money. People nowadays seem to have no patience for poring over books for years on end in order to make a minute spiritual discovery; they want it instant and fattening. There are still Golden Dawn caliber occultists who haven't "sold out" but they are few.
I have written this in the Totems thread that while people get their feathers ruffled at this or that native culture being appropriated, few ask themselves about doctrines that were appropriated in the past and have been fused into the Western Mystery Tradition. Kabbalah is a prime example of this. Many people who are not Jewish study it, and I must admit I do in a non-religious capacity, but there is no doubt that it is inherently Jewish. It is just difficult to get around. In addition, what is taught in the West is merely one school of Kabbalah, of which there are many, dealing with such diverse topics as sex, actual magick, society, talismans that do not include a red string... really, it's just so big, and anyone looking for New Age appropriation, look no further.
However, the Golden Dawn, and others took it, codified it and made it somewhat easier to understand, and I do thank them for it. Just this morning I read Crowley saying in Magick Without Tears that he had no interest in Jewish theology or ritual, but did use Kabbalah daily. Now, honestly, I think that's a ridiculous statement; it is practically impossible to separate the two (the Tetragrammaton is part of Jewish theology, the "oneness" of God in Kabbalah... in short, most of the most learned (Jewish) Kabbalists were quick to point out that nothing they wrote contradicted the Torah, although at times it may seem like it.
Now, the point I'm trying to get to is that I am all for quilting a unified worldview made of many parts, but like any Tarot deck, my motto is simple: do the work, do the homework, if you have something to show for it, great. Crowley did when he fused Kabbalah with Thelema, alchemy with the Three Gunas and in a number of different ways. However, unless you really, really know what you're doing, the results could be ridiculous, and usually are. Waite did it well, so did Mathers, Wescott and Crowley. I have yet to see, even among acclaimed Tarot authors, anything coming close to that level.
I think that in many respects, New Age has nothing to do with spirituality, but with making money. People nowadays seem to have no patience for poring over books for years on end in order to make a minute spiritual discovery; they want it instant and fattening. There are still Golden Dawn caliber occultists who haven't "sold out" but they are few.
tarotbear
IMHO -
When you 'clump-' a bunch of stuff together - you get a 'clump'. Not every occult system in the world will correlate 100% with any or every other occult system just because a few things here or there may be exactly the same. To take the limitations of one system and impose the limitations of another over it means there are more limitations. If 75% of one system correlates with another ... what about that 25% that doesn't fit, match, or work?
In cooking there are many variations; if you hate broccoli but love spinach, substituting one for the other will not radically change the dish. Hate carrots? Use peas instead. But if you want a quiche, you need a crust, onions & mushrooms, cheese, and a mixture of eggs and cream. If you want a quiche but you substitute an old exam paper for the crust, chocolate cake for the onions, marshmallows of the mushrooms, and old shoelace for the cheese - even if you pour an egg & cream mixture over it - you won't get a quiche for a result.
That is my analogy for mixing Esoteric traditions.
When you 'clump-' a bunch of stuff together - you get a 'clump'. Not every occult system in the world will correlate 100% with any or every other occult system just because a few things here or there may be exactly the same. To take the limitations of one system and impose the limitations of another over it means there are more limitations. If 75% of one system correlates with another ... what about that 25% that doesn't fit, match, or work?
In cooking there are many variations; if you hate broccoli but love spinach, substituting one for the other will not radically change the dish. Hate carrots? Use peas instead. But if you want a quiche, you need a crust, onions & mushrooms, cheese, and a mixture of eggs and cream. If you want a quiche but you substitute an old exam paper for the crust, chocolate cake for the onions, marshmallows of the mushrooms, and old shoelace for the cheese - even if you pour an egg & cream mixture over it - you won't get a quiche for a result.
That is my analogy for mixing Esoteric traditions.
Zephyros
But tarotbear, the Golden Dawn proved it was possible, to an extent. I have no doubt there are many esoteric traditions they did not use, but the ones they did use, they did with a certain flair. I have no problem with fusion, it is how ideas proliferate, but again, it must be done well. There are so many New Age decks packed with different elements just for the sake of it.
I'm a cliche, bringing up my Thoth in every post, but look for example on Crowley's dorjes (not, of course, his "dorjes"). Up until a while ago, I had no clue as to what they were, what they were used for or anything. But the symbol itself works: a grim, scary face on one side, and a spike you wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of. It smacks of power, strength and authority. Kabbalah may not have been invented in England, but it does work, and has been appropriated so long ago, it has become part of the Western tradition.
I think part of the problem is the democratization of the occult in general and Tarot and particular. I would like to see more occultists making decks, not just artists. New occult ground is simply not being covered in the same way anymore, hence the public is reaching out for new avenues. However, another problem is that, like vee said, we are all shamans/clairvoyants/chakrax/stars/"special people". Every man and every woman may be a star, but enlightenment takes work. Not necessarilly Golden Dawn "book work," but work all the same, but neither Tarot artists nor the general public have the patience to pursue something that is not the spiritual equivalent of heroin they are used to: feel good for a while, then be left empty.
I'm a cliche, bringing up my Thoth in every post, but look for example on Crowley's dorjes (not, of course, his "dorjes"). Up until a while ago, I had no clue as to what they were, what they were used for or anything. But the symbol itself works: a grim, scary face on one side, and a spike you wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of. It smacks of power, strength and authority. Kabbalah may not have been invented in England, but it does work, and has been appropriated so long ago, it has become part of the Western tradition.
I think part of the problem is the democratization of the occult in general and Tarot and particular. I would like to see more occultists making decks, not just artists. New occult ground is simply not being covered in the same way anymore, hence the public is reaching out for new avenues. However, another problem is that, like vee said, we are all shamans/clairvoyants/chakrax/stars/"special people". Every man and every woman may be a star, but enlightenment takes work. Not necessarilly Golden Dawn "book work," but work all the same, but neither Tarot artists nor the general public have the patience to pursue something that is not the spiritual equivalent of heroin they are used to: feel good for a while, then be left empty.
Richard
Levi, Mathers, Waite, and Crowley, among others, were masters at discovering parallels between different traditions. The keyword here is "discover." For example, forcing one tradition onto another was not the intention of those who saw a connection between Tarot and Qabalah. Even de Gebelin's conjectures about Tarot's connection with Egyptian mythology has some validity from an esoteric perspective, although the Egyption/Gypsy origin theory is utter nonsense.
Morwenna
I tend not to buy decks that have too many extraneous things thrown in, but I do make an exception for Kabbalah because yes, it works. I admit I only know as much about Kabbalah as the Western Mystery Tradition writes of (and not all of that either; I must be ages behind most of you on this thread), but it does work. I've had workshops with a conservative Jewish Tarot master who confirmed and augmented what I had learned from books. But don't get me started on runes!!! One of my best friends is a rune scholar and specialist in Norse folklore, and runes are about as far from Tarot as apples from asparagus. I do read runes (in the method she taught me, which is pretty far from Blum, BTW) and I do read Tarot, but if I should use them both for the same person, or the same question, I would use them separately, in succession, one as a clarifier for the other. I wouldn't attempt to try to fuse them!
As for the New Age, yes, it's been full of mishmash and watering down, but there are so many things in this world of which that is true. In its defense, it was the only area for a very long time where a person could get magical training of any kind without having to subscribe to a specific religion (mainly Pagan). It opened the fields of magic and divination and various kinds of spiritual seeking to agnostics, deists, Christians who didn't mind flouting their local clergy, and so on. (In fact it was the great popularity of the New Age that spurred clergy members to denounce it.) And of course in an area where there is no scientific authority to help people weed out the BS (most scientists would weed out the whole thing, including us here), the charlatans have free rein. So do the bottom-liners. I have a good friend who is Christian, a palmist, a Reiki master, and a sensible person, who unabashedly claims herself as New Age, and will rush to defend her standpoint.
And the BS artists are in every field of life as well. The New Age doesn't have a corner on them.
As for the New Age, yes, it's been full of mishmash and watering down, but there are so many things in this world of which that is true. In its defense, it was the only area for a very long time where a person could get magical training of any kind without having to subscribe to a specific religion (mainly Pagan). It opened the fields of magic and divination and various kinds of spiritual seeking to agnostics, deists, Christians who didn't mind flouting their local clergy, and so on. (In fact it was the great popularity of the New Age that spurred clergy members to denounce it.) And of course in an area where there is no scientific authority to help people weed out the BS (most scientists would weed out the whole thing, including us here), the charlatans have free rein. So do the bottom-liners. I have a good friend who is Christian, a palmist, a Reiki master, and a sensible person, who unabashedly claims herself as New Age, and will rush to defend her standpoint.
And the BS artists are in every field of life as well. The New Age doesn't have a corner on them.
vee
Oh, I meant I'm not so sure that I'm respectful of them either.
My main point is that we accept Kabbalah+Tarot because there is such a long historical tradition of it. If that connection hadn't been made and I made a deck about it last week, it would be very different.
From my perspective, Kabbalah+Egyptian+Gypsy connections probably stemmed from a kind of orientalism on the part of de Gebelin et al. Certainly they made it work and meaningful, otherwise there wouldn't be so many people following it today, but it's (imo) not really any different than trying to put I Ching onto Tarot. That doesn't mean I think it's okay to do, but it seems strange to me to condemn one thing while celebrating the other.
tarotbear
The New Age did not have 'a corner' on BS Artists, but (IMHO) -it - and the Internet - helped them proliferate!
I am trying to remember an exactly movie quote ... in the movie 'Can Can' Shirley Maclaine says (of the denizens of Montmartre): 'We didn't create decadence ... we just perfected it.'
